Real Accuracy (2 moa or less) with Coated Rifle Bullets at 1800 fps or greater.

[HollowPoint]

I finally got a chance to get out and fire a few of my fist batch of PC'd pistol bullets. I fired some 45 cal. and some .380's. The little 380s shot about the same as plain cast or the expensive store bought self-defense rounds I use for carry. That's a good thing.

I was unimpressed with the 45s performance. They tended to shoot real low at 25 yards with widely dispersed groups.

Cycling with both semi autos was flawless it's just that with my Kimber 45, I'm so used to that gun shooting accurately with every other bullet I've shot out of it that it just sticks in my craw that it didn't shoot well this time out. I'll have to teak the loads to see it that will help.

I just love the fact that I got no leading and that cleaning was a breeze compared to before. I'm not ready to give up just yet.

On a side note; I finally finished my second set of swaging dies for the Smooth-Sided 30 caliber rifle bullets I've been working on. Now I just have to finish up my adjustable 30 caliber bullet mold and I'll be ready to rock and roll with them too.

HollowPoint

[Luigi Lavazza]

Not sure if this qualifies but I'm super happy with it. Done at 50 yds since I was working up a load. Scrap Pb water quenched and weighed in at 139.5 each. Total group size was 1.5" with the 4 at .5". Running between 2700-2800 fps

[leadman]

Luigi, if the flyer is included this is 3" at 100 yards so it does not meet the 2 moa.
Was the flyer a called shot out ?
Looks like you have the basis for a good load but just need to refine the load?

[Luigi Lavazza]

yea it was just me yesterday and hadn't shot this rifle in almost a year. I didn't recall flinching so not sure what the flier was. I'll definitely load up 50 or so more and see if I get the same results. May see how they fly in the m1A too. Too bad they won't chamber in the stinkin Savage 10.

[HollowPoint]

Not sure if this qualifies but I'm super happy with it. Done at 50 yds since I was working up a load. Scrap Pb water quenched and weighed in at 139.5 each. Total group size was 1.5" with the 4 at .5". Running between 2700-2800 fps

This is the best I've seen so far; even if it is just fifty yards. I agree with Leadman. It looks like you're onto something good. With a little more tweaking you might exceed the OP's original request.

Do you mind if I ask what caliber, Powder, Cast Bullet and load you were using? Scratch that. I found this info in one of your other posts.

I just picked up another toy in 9mm caliber that has side-tracked me from finishing my Smooth-Sided dedicated 30 caliber bullet mold and swaging die set up. I should have it done by the middle of next month and I'm hoping for results similar to yours.

HollowPoint

[Luigi Lavazza]

HollowPoint:
these were launched from my open sight Argentine FAL with a 21" chrome lined 1:11 twist 308 barrel. This load was 45.5 grains of RL15 and the bullets were sized down to 308.

disclaimer: do not start with this load as it may be unsafe in your firearm. Please work up slowly.

I'm planning on moving a 1.5-5 Leupold over to this one and see how it does at 100yds this weekend. Not crazy about the idea of hunting with an 11lb rifle but it might work.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

While the OP was actually with regard to handgun accuracy and I would think rifle accuracy slightly off topic, I find anything related to the FAL interesting. Do you have a thread going in the milsurp area? That thing seems to be really showing promise.

[doctorggg]

Actually the OP is looking for rifle data with coated bullets at 1800 fps.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Oops
My apologies gentlemen, I'm watching another thread with a similar title. Head in behind makes it hard to read.

[Luigi Lavazza]

HollowPoint,
i apologize. You also asked about the mold. They came from my new RCBS 7.62mm 130gr mold.

[OHPrepper7]

How about a PC'd boolit that gets swaged after a thin coating? Less surface thickness variation and perfect sizing of the whole boolit.

Compressive strength of the PC is more than lead so all you will accomplish is making what ever geometry is there rounder and smaller.

Wouldn't that still largely accomplish the intended goal? As PC displaces lead you would alter the bullets center of gravity, but I'm guessing it would be to an exponentially small degree - insignificant.

My leading theory for mass-produced, highly accurate PC boolits: Re-Swage AFTER powder coat.
This would probably mean swage-coat-swage, as I doubt powder coating the raw core would survive the initial swaging. But a secondary swage would uniform the exterior of the bullet, and (I suspect) give you nearly identical results to a copper jacket swagged bullet.

Is anyone out there equipped/willing to try this?

[Luigi Lavazza]

I swage once and only after coating. Swaging the linotype was definitely more difficult then the pure lead. I was having to spray them with my case lube first.

[Luigi Lavazza]

I was able to make it out yesterday with the newly scoped FAL and the remainder of the 100 that I coated and loaded up with the same recipe. Not good. I zeroed in the scope first with about 7-8 rounds of my known good FMJ load then ran about 40 of the PC cast. Most groups were about 6" spread at 100yds. I went back to my 165 game kings and went back to my 1.5-2" group for this rifle.

when I initially shot them, i cast them on Wednesday, powdercoated on Thursday loaded and shot on Saturday.

i read somewhere here that water quenched lead will soften over time. What is that length of time? Will it go soft in a week?

[Echd]

Water quenched lead alloys (or any lead alloy, really) will harden over time. The degree to which they harden is mostly in accordance with the antimony and to a lesser extent the tin in the mix (but it's the antimony that hardens it over time, the tin is helpful to allow the antimony to alloy with the lead to a significant amount in addition to its other useful functions in fillout). Arsenic also plays a factor to a smaller extent.

Pure lead does not harden or soften over time.

When shooting for a specific hardness it is best to use a lead alloy that is proven to cast around the hardness you desire, as opposed to dropping it in water and hoping for the best. I'll admit I water drop anything made of "mystery metal" because generally that's for pistols or blasting ammo.

I think many of the poor accuracy problems we see may be because people are really trying to hotrod PC'd bullets with entirely too soft alloys. Stay 1800-2100 FPS and you'll have your best results (IN MY EXPERIENCE). I've seen my best results with .30-30, 7.62x39, heavy .308s loaded relatively lightly, .45-70... stuff that doesn't really need a superhard bullet to perform. Even then I'm finding my best results with the lowest pressure recipes I can get.

With a harder alloy you can definitely get by with a little more oomph. You can drive a PC'd bullet as hard as you want, but it may not give you great results.

I recently purchased a NOE .30 XCB mold. I'm not a fan of the .30 XCB idea (seems like a rimless .30-40 Krag would have accomplished what they want, more or less...) but the bullet it drops should be a real shooter in tight bored .30s. I've got a handful cast up and PC'd, GC'd, as well as lubed and GC'd. I am also going to give paper patching a try, but I'll have to get a real narrow sizer die for that first. I'm giving them a couple weeks to harden and I'm also going to try and pick up some monotype to try very hard boolits as well. I'm not shooting for super high velocity, but looking for the best and most repeatable PC accuracy. If i am unable to equal lubed bullet accuracy with PC I might just relegate it to pistol status, where it has achieved extremely excellent results for me. I will be shooting it from my Savage FCP-K which is definitely a 3/4 MOA shooter with 168 SMKs, so if it won't shoot, it's on the bullets.

I have a week off in another two weeks, and I have to get my range mowed too... been really busy with work lately and haven't been able to shoot like I've wanted, but I've been acquiring lots of toys to play with over the fall and winter.

[leadman]

HollowPoint, see my posts #59 and #159.

I am not giving up on Hi-Tek and rifle loads but will continue to develop loads for the 30 cals. that my neck can stand and try to get the best accuracy with.
I tried adding moly to the HT liquid one time but seem to have lost the data amongst the rest so will rerun this testing. I may also try some spray on moly that I tested for Lee Precision several years back. My thinking is that there is alot of friction and heat at higher velocities from the powder and the boolit slammed tightly in the bore.
Lubing in a luber/sizer is faster and in most cases results in better accuracy in the rifles but it sure is messy compared to HT or PC.

[Russel Nash]

I was able to make it out yesterday with the newly scoped FAL and the remainder of the 100 that I coated and loaded up with the same recipe. Not good. I zeroed in the scope first with about 7-8 rounds of my known good FMJ load then ran about 40 of the PC cast. Most groups were about 6" spread at 100yds. I went back to my 165 game kings and went back to my 1.5-2" group for this rifle.

when I initially shot them, i cast them on Wednesday, powdercoated on Thursday loaded and shot on Saturday.

i read somewhere here that water quenched lead will soften over time. What is that length of time? Will it go soft in a week?

Were you using gas checks with your cast lead and powder coated boolits?

[Luigi Lavazza]

Yes I was using gas checks. I have tried with and without and have more success with them on.

[xacex]

Bump to see if anyone else has been working on this. I had to dedicate some time to another project, so I should be getting back on track to revisit my work, and see if I can get some improvements.

[MBTcustom]

Unfortunately, even 1/2" groups at 50 yards do not equal sub 3MOA at 100. Linear expansion can never be assumed with cast bullets.

[Russel Nash]

My take on this thread is this.

Very very few people who are the most dedicated cast bullst aficionados are doing with the OP requests with ANY cast projectile. Lubed or PC

BINGO!

I think I might have posted pics in this thread already of my AR chambered in 7.62X39, along with a 100 yard group.

With American Eagle brass cased ammo with jacketed bullets, it is at best a 1.5 inch grouping gun at 100 yards.

I missed out on a chance for Walmart clearanced AR in .308 for $600 plus a couple of weeks ago.

That would have been my choice of gun/caliber to use for experimenting with this to meet the high bar the OP has set for this thread