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Thread: Shooting through brush?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Yep Winelover, use cast boolits and still be prepared for an almost sure miss. Go back and read post #28. ------ Way more bad/negative experiences in this thread then those who "lucked" a shot through the brush or grass.

    Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Ross Seyfreid and Mike Venturino both wrote articles about shooting through brush many years ago. I may still have both old magazines around.

    Ross used brush piles and Mike used a board drilled with dowels standing up. In both cases it was demonstrated that bullet path for typical pointed hunting bullets was dramatically affected.

    As already mentioned, RN, RNFP and SWC shapes seemed somewhat less affected and especially the larger bore like .45-70.

    If the target was close (say 5') behind the brush the bullets did not have time to "wander" and hits weren't too far off but if the target was well behind the brush groups were measured in feet.

    Ross also wrote about shotgun slugs shot through brush (can't recall if it was the same article) and the round balls or hard, square shouldered Brenneke style slugs turned in a pretty good performance with minimal deflection... not no deflection, just less.

    My opinion ~ if the range is short and the animal is in light brush with open shot most of the way and short distance of just a few feet between brush and animal, the .45-70 with RN, RNFP, LFN, or similar shapes will do the job. I would not trust a pointed soft point jacketed bullet at all.

    Just my opinion.

    Longbow

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by d garfield View Post
    Shot gun and double oo buck,and go for it.

    That statement is just plain irresponsible and wrong(my opinion and I am free to express it). Seems like every year I either finish the job or find a rotting corpse or two from someone who thought the same exact thing as your statement. Buckshot has no purpose in the deer woods regardless of how our idiotic lawmakers think. I'll take a single projectile that I KNOW where it is going over 9 or 12 questionable riddles each and everytime thank you very much. I have given buckshot a fair shake out in several good patterning guns over the years...I just do not trust it for deer hunting and alot of hunters trust it faaaaaaarrrrrrr tooooooo much.

  4. #44
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    No absolutes for me. Each situation is unique. Gun and bullet, range, type of brush, space from brush to muzzle and from brush to deer. Way too many variables to say always or never.

    I will say that when you pull the trigger you own the results. When things go sour learn from it.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master Win94ae's Avatar
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    Never shoot through thick brush, your shooting partner may be what is behind it... now that, that is out of the way.


    When I was shooting my 30-06 with Sierra 180gr SPs, at 600 yards. There were tree branches at 300 yards that I thought I was shooting over. To make a long story short, I hit branches 3 times, two of the times it resulted in about a 10 inch deviation; one of the times I don't know where it impacted, so it might have been a pretty great deflection.

    Then there is this.
    The Box O' Truth #40 - Deflected Bullets and the Box O' Truth

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    I tree stand hunt a lot so I always have some shooting lanes cut for a couple of anticipated approaches. I have passed a lot of shots at first and last light because I would think any bullet could blow up hitting a small branch. I am always studing my surroundings for holes to shoot through; it helps.

  7. #47
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    Colonel Charles Askins also did a 'brush-shooting test' MANY years ago.

    On interpreting his results, he basically said that, on the day you decide to shoot through the brush, he hoped that was the day you brought the .458 with 500-grain round-noses. There was that much obvious difference from the smaller-bores.


    ....and some people still wonder why so many of us LIKE the large bores and heavy bullets!

    Of course, the internal strength to REFUSE THE SHOT in iffy conditions is the most important attribute of all.
    Regards from BruceB in Nevada

    "The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen

  8. #48
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    It’s been a long time since I did my testing (mid 70’s) but my results did not reflect the same results as the box of truth . I observed way more deflection than their test showed.

    Also providing the bullet didn’t blow up the long high section density bullets out of a fast twist deflected the least in my tests. The worst were the short blunt bullets out of a slow twist rifle. The 6.5 Swede with 140 round nose defected significantly less than the 405 grain 45/70. I tested .243, 6.5 Swede, 270, 30-30, 30-06, 444, 45/70 and 50 cal. round ball.

    After these tests I concluded that none of the bullet made it thought the brush worth at hoot. My solution was to upgrade my optic so I could see any twigs and pick my shots. That method has worked very well for me for the past 40 years.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 11-18-2013 at 12:23 AM.

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion that the the higher the momentum and the lower the energy the less the deflection will be. A well stabilized bullet/boolit is a must though. The 6.5 Swede fits the bill. 220 gr 30 cal's with a fast twist also fits the bill.

    It's about two forces; momentum which tries to keep the boolit moving in a straight line and energy of impact which tries to deflect the boolit. The higher the velocity the greater the magnitude of the impact energy. Also, the higher the velocity the higher the momentum but, energy is a square of the velocity, it's best to gain momentum with a heavier boolit. Boolit diameter is important too, with the larger diameter having a greater destabilizing effect if it makes a glancing impact. Then again will the same large diameter boolit feel a blade of grass as much as a faster and lighter boolit would?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  10. #50
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    But I didn't own one then!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by badbobgerman View Post
    should a used the 35 whelenshooter , it probably would have had the mass to push through...

  11. #51
    Boolit Man
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    Good Afternoon;

    I didn't read all of the posts, but I think the following video answers a lot of the OP's questions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2_7OPdbQEM

    D
    Never trust a skinny chef, a fat personal trainer, or anyone who can't stand beer.

    Blessed are those who are cracked, for they shall let in the light.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winelover View Post
    For a cast boolet thread, I'm surprised at the number of responses, citing j-words. I expected most of you to be hunting with boolets! Pointy bullets and high velocity doesn't mix, when it comes to brush!! Use flat points and large calibers, at moderate velocities, in thickets.

    Winelover
    I live in Illinois where we are not allowed by Chicago politicians to hunt without paying there protection money nor following there rules. Which say we can't use a rifle to hunt. Now you figure that out then get back to me with a rational answer.

    So I used 12 gage shotgun and 45 caliber muzzle loader. Both very poor brush busters. Simple sad situation all around. I should of bought a 54 caliber round ball gun. But I didn't know better back in 1971.

    Slow bullets are not good brush busters in any weight. fast bullets are and the heavier the better. 30 caliber 220 grain at around 2300 fps as in a 220 grain RN from a 30-06 is close to the top of the line. IMHO:::: Rounds like the 35 Whelan and 375 H&H magnum are supper penetrate anything including brush. Super high velocity blows bullets up on impact with anything larger than a blade of grass. To slow and bullets deflect easily like a bb gun. Biggest rifle I personally own is a 30-06. Heaviest cast boolit I have is a 200 grain flat nose. WE don't have brown bears in Illinois. However a 220 grain cast bullet running around 2200 fps is going to bust through enough brush for any prudent hunter. 1950 fps is a more easy load. Most anything that shoots with a 170 grain or heavier from a 30-30 is a good brush gun. Like that's a surprise. But if you want to seriously have a brush gun. Use a 45 caliber 420 grain cast bullet from an alloy of 4% tin 5% Sb with a touch of copper air cooled running around 1,900 fps. This would be a modern 45-70 or 458 SOCOM . 458 win mag or whatever. That load will penetrate a four foot pine tree. That's not to say a half inch twig won't send it off into Netherlands.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    Hmmmmmmmm? GabbyM,

    I guess I'd need to see that proven in a number of good tests, as every test I've seen on the subject pretty well proves the point that at least in shoulder arms, there simply is no such thing as a brush gun. I guess my experience, spoken of a number of post back, with a 465gr WFN cast at 1650fps and it's failure to hit anywhere in a deer sized critter at about 100yds with ONLY a light screen of field grass between the muzzle and the critter, is good enough to prove the point for me. ------ I simply will not go there again. ---- Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

  14. #54
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusty Deary Ol'Coot View Post
    Hmmmmmmmm? GabbyM,

    I guess I'd need to see that proven in a number of good tests, as every test I've seen on the subject pretty well proves the point that at least in shoulder arms, there simply is no such thing as a brush gun. I guess my experience, spoken of a number of post back, with a 465gr WFN cast at 1650fps and it's failure to hit anywhere in a deer sized critter at about 100yds with ONLY a light screen of field grass between the muzzle and the critter, is good enough to prove the point for me. ------ I simply will not go there again. ---- Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
    I agree with you Crusty. Read the last sentence of my last post.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    Ahaaaaa, Got ya Gabby!

    CDOC

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357maximum View Post
    That statement is just plain irresponsible and wrong(my opinion and I am free to express it). Seems like every year I either finish the job or find a rotting corpse or two from someone who thought the same exact thing as your statement. Buckshot has no purpose in the deer woods regardless of how our idiotic lawmakers think. I'll take a single projectile that I KNOW where it is going over 9 or 12 questionable riddles each and everytime thank you very much. I have given buckshot a fair shake out in several good patterning guns over the years...I just do not trust it for deer hunting and alot of hunters trust it faaaaaaarrrrrrr tooooooo much.
    I hail from the coastal Southeast. Since we have no snow or long periods of sub-freezing weather to kill off the underbrush, the only places one can shoot deer and hog without dealing with brush are in man-made clearings, agricultural or otherwise.
    Yes, today many hunters use elevated stands and planted areas to hunt deer as have I. Yet, simply put, otherwise you have to deal with true close range brush hunting and moving game. Shooting under these conditions is not much different than rabbit hunting. Especially when hog hunting.

    Yes, I have used and still use buckshot. Conventional small pellet buckshot like #1B and 00B will put deer down decisively under these conditions. With the explosion of wild hog populations I have moved to much larger buckshot to deal with the needed penetration issues with large hogs. Three tight patterning, hard cast 22 gauge buckshot pellets, (320 grain .60 caliber), from a well choked 12 bore are indeed very decisive in putting large hogs down in our coastal swamplands.

    Certainly you should use the Gun/Ammunition/Sighting system that has earned your trust under your hunting conditions. However, the wholesale condemnation of the hunting tool choices of other hunters, is uncalled for.
    Last edited by RMc; 12-24-2013 at 09:59 AM.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master Victor N TN's Avatar
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    My most favorite rifle for shooting almost anything is a Rem 700 Custom Varmint Special chambered in 25-06. When I first got it I had a 3X9 Weaver steel tube on it from JC Penny. I had just started handloading. My favorite load for crows and groundhogs was topped with a Sierra 90 grain HPBT, reving about 2950 fps. After MANY crows and groundhogs, I was on another mans farm with him. We were spotting for each other. We saw a big crow lite in the top of a tree. It was my turn to go first. I got down prone and used my jacket to lift up the sand bag enough to get to the crow. I fired... The bird just sat there. Looking through my scope I saw something that looked like a spiderweb. We investigated further and saw a perfect bullet hole through an Oak leaf of the tree we were laying under.

    I lost 1 deer to that load. When I discovered Nosler Partition Bullets, I never lost another animal.

    Sorry I'm not exactly on topic. But ANY bullet can be made to go off predicted track when it hits obstacles of varying density and thicknesses.
    Be careful,
    Victor

    Life member NRA

  18. #58
    Boolit Master Victor N TN's Avatar
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    To ad to the above post, I have ordered a mold to start making 30 cal 180 grain cast bullets. Eventually I'll try to post a range report.
    Be careful,
    Victor

    Life member NRA

  19. #59
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    Would be easy to set up a test. Put a target in the brush and shoot at it. You will know what you boolet will do some of the time but not all of the time.

  20. #60
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    Seems that MOST of these "tests" were only one shot affairs. I shot a total of FIVE shots at each test and averaged MY results.The bottom line though, is DON"T shoot thru brush!

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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