How accurate are the original Buffalo rifles and schuetzen rifles?

[44minimum]

Let's say that the year is 1885 or so and you are shooting a .40/90, .45/70, .45/110 or something like that in competition. About what distance would be the maximum that you can keep all of your shots on a man sized target? I know that it depends on the wind and all of that, but let's say that conditions are perfect, there is no wind. What kind of theoretical accuracy are these guns capable of? I'm sure that some of you could probably show me some original targets from the period or give me an exact measurement of the groups that were fired in competition back then.

Do I have this thread in the right location? Or should I put it over in the bpcr section?

[bigted]

LOL ... I do believe you are prolly in the rite place. there will be a plethora of answers and they will probably differ from a bit to a bunch. I for one am looking forward to the posts to this grand question ... thanks for posting it.

other then the original targets that will surface in photo's ... there are no good answers as folks have been trying to duplicate or improve on this very subject matter for years now.

unless you had some vintage loaded cartridges loaded with vintage supply's to include the vintage powder and with vintage primers and cases AND shot in new condition vintage rifles ... I suggest that all we can do is to be aware of the "vintage" targets shot during the "day" when these shooters shot the targets.

looking forward ... like I said... to the reply's this will generate.

[Doc Highwall]

Some of the old measurements might be given as a string measurement or mean radius.

[44minimum]

hmmmmmmm, well, aren't there's still lots of guys that use original guns to shoot matches nowadays? I'm just trying to get an idea what these guns are capable of at 500, 600, maybe 800 yards or so. Didn't they shoot those Creedmore matches at 1000 yards? What kind of groups did those guys get?

[Baja_Traveler]

All I know is there are a couple guys at my monthly BPCR match that could flatten any person willing to wander out to the 5-600 yard line day in and day out no matter the wind...

I'm not one of those people...

[bigted]

while I don't know all the answers I will offer this;

folks can and do use the vintage rifles as you suggest. folks try to copy the vintage style loads ... however ... the cases were different then modern ... the primers were different then modern ... the powder was different then modern. so when you ask what WAS the real accuracy available to the VINTAGE shooters ... then we have to rely on history only as a clue as to what WAS capable.

what IS capable however is a different question. LOTS of modern shooters can testify to this capability. using modern cases ... modern primers ... modern manufactured powder ... with modern type wadding material.

so as to properly answer your quest then a explanation of what you need/desire is maybe needed. I perceived that your quest was to ascertain the capability's of the ODG's [old dead guys].

I do not know if there are differences in what WAS and what IS capable in these rifles ... however I DO know that there are folks around that I would NEVER take a bet on whether they could or could not hit something at the 500 600 or800 yards and I still ...[as has been mentioned before]... would never walk out in front of them at 1 mile and HOPE that they could not hit me with the vintage rifle and using the vintage sights.

these scribbles are not a direct answer to your question but I feel that the truly accurate shooters will be along directly to tell their tales and post their targets as "proof" if required.

[GabbyM]

OK
The old soft steels used back then were not good for some parameters. However it is well accepted the soft steel worked well at deadening vibrations, thus were accurate. Manufacturing tolerances were just that. As a machinist I can tell you with certainty a good machinist can make a great piece on a junk machine. Plus the gun drill was invented around just before the civil war IIRC and hasn’t really changed much. I've run a gun drill as a deep hole drill. Bore is finished with reamers made long with bore guides. Same as today. Big difference is new material for the reamers and drill bit makes for much longer tool life. I’m so old carbide tools were a new trick when I started. And I’m not even retired yet, just to get a perspective. Modern manufacturing processes have more to do with bringing cost of manufacturing down than quality and tolerance. Even though tolerances are more easily achieved. Whip crackers and bean counters run machine shops. Thus you need to look at what is being achieved in bench rest comp with there quality suppliers to see any modern improvements. That and the fact you ca buy a $350 Savage that will shoot under an inch at 100 yards with of the shelf ammo.

Back in the BP days. It’s , as far as I can tell, a popular belief that good rifles were around. Very good actually. Still today small shop craftsmen can make a very good BP rifle from scratch. Some members on this forum. Then you get down to finding some very good black powder. Which I think was always a big challenge. Today you simply pony up and pay top dollar for internationally advertised BP. Back in the 19th century you were pretty much stuck with what you could get. But so was everyone else you shot with.

I know they still shoot very old rifles in Shutzen. What I don’t know is if new rifles are being built today that can out shoot the old rifles. Since I don’t play the game.
Even if new rifles do better I may be inclined to think it’s just because over a century of wear is bound to degrade a rifle. Especially since my 243 Win prairie dog guns have a barrel life of six days on the dog fields.

One thing I know for a fact is this. Machinist of the 19th century considered there skill to be what separated them from those around them starving as compared to the simple sustenance existence they lived. In simple terms. If a man screwed up to often. His wife and children would starve then die before his eyes. Plus there was a great pride in craftsmanship back then. Just in general.

One thing we do have today they didn't have back even thirty years ago is the ability to measure finished product to extreme precision in order to separate out the scrap parts. Don't confuse the ability to do that with any inclination to actually throw scrap away. Nor take the time to actually measure a finished part. We do see machined parts not going up in price as fast as inflation and that's why. Simply put we can run parts fast then just eat the scrap as warranty return. So now we just have to sort through fewer rifles to find a good one than we did 140 years ago.

[Lead pot]

The old original rifles only shot a well as the guy loading the cartridges and his ability to shoot the rifle. I only have two original rifles and a few reproductions and they all shoot very good.
I see targets down in the pits shot 800 to 1000 yards and they look just as good as the old photo's I have seen.The only thing is; todays targets are round.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...56146854,d.aWc

[44minimum]

The reason I would like to get some kind of an idea is because I'm writing a Western novel and my main little hired killer guy is going to be using a Frank Wesson number one midrange and sporting rifle to do his dastardly deeds, mostly from long range. I'd like to get some kind of an idea what these rifles were capable of, so if I want to have my little killer guy shooting people at 600 yards, that people won't start laughing and saying, there's no way that could have happened. I'd like to have it as realistic as possible. Back then, could a good shot consistently kill a guy at 600 yards? 800 yards? I simply have no idea at all, I have never been to a black powder match or anything like that and I don't know what these rifles can do. I know that some guys set up steel buffaloes a half-mile away up on the side of a mountain and like to plink at them, but can they hit it the first shot, every time? And I'm sure that the guys nowadays still using authentic rifles with modern propellants and brass and powder do get slightly better groups than the guys 100 years ago, but even their results will give me some kind of a clue. Anything that anyone feels like sharing, I'm happy to learn.

[Lead pot]

Here are some of the top shooters of this game today. It would be interesting to put them on line with the shooters of yesteryear.
But to answer your question "can they keep all shots on a man size target at that range?" I wouldent want to stand out there.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ron-man-title/

[Lead pot]

I cant put it down in writing better than showing you what these shooters of today are capable of doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRaRCCZjdTM

[williamwaco]

44-,

The answer to your question is YES! it is possible but I am not sure about the individual rifle you have chosen.

Note that the 1000 yard Creedmore bullseye is a 36" square. Keep in mind that most adult men in those days were 5'6" to 5'8" and rarely more than 130 pounds. Your torso bullseye is only 14 to 18 inches square. This would argue that for a relatively sure shot on that target, the max range is in the neighborhood of 500 yards. ( Assuming your rifle is as accurate as those match rifles and your villain is as good as those contestants. ) Your assignment, should you decide to accept it, is to find out if the Frank Wesson number one midrange and sporting rifle was ever used in those matches. If not, I would assume it was because the "Real experts" of the day didn't think it was up to the task.

I applaud your dedication to historical realism. You can make your shooter's skill level as high as you want but you can't make a sporting rifle into a Creedmore rifle.
Note I am NOT saying your choice is bad. I just don't know. You could conjure up an "Artimus Gordon" figure to improve the sporting rifle for your Villain.

Please review these match descriptions.

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/TCFacts.htm

http://www.nrai.ie/events/creedmoor_cup_2011.html

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Sport...Mid-Range.html

http://www.assra.com/feature-november_december-2004.htm

http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/...ver-rifle.aspx

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Sport...Mid-Range.html


The NRA link puts you in the ball park.

PS:

You owe me an autographed copy.

[shooter93]

I have no doubt that a good shooter could hit a man at 600 yds back then. I'm actually starting a build on a Wesson Number 1 long range action using one of Steve Earle's actions. I'm thinking one of the 44 calibers. One of the people in a book I've been dabbling with uses one....smiles.

[oldgeezershooter]

Those old timers knew what their rifles would do and fired accordingly.
Most were pretty good with "Kentucky Windage."

[GabbyM]

Video never stated a range I heard.

Old timers would of done long shots the same way we do them now. Simply know not guess your range.
We have all heard the story of Dixon's famous shot into approaching hostiles down in Texas. Think about it. He was at a favored water hole. Home turf advantage put to use is what he had. I personally work a forty acre piece of ground. Also know the exact range to my neighbors house barn and about six other buildings as he does mine. That's called overlaying fields of fire. Never seen it in print but it's obvious that Mr. Dixon knew exactly where his target was when he made that shot. Wasn't just some guess. If it was then the shot was just dumb luck, which I don't think it was. After all defending that position was probably something that had crossed there minds previously. After you get acquainted with a piece of ground. You know how far the top of this and that slope is. Fence post and other markers. Back porch shooting is what Dixon did. Just like shooting known ranges on a target field. Then all you need do is make a great shot. Then for your book you can look at accuracy of shooters at known ranges.

But then some men can be very good at range judgment. The old 60mm patrol mortar men and 40mm grenade men are fine examples. We have had and do have many grenadiers and motormen you simply do not want shooting at you because they will shoot into you not at you. 45-70's shoot flat compared to a mortar. We do have men in this nation who can shoot like a comic book character. I've seen them do it and it's humbling.

[johnson1942]

highly skilled and fussy machinest and soft steel that didnt barrel whip made very accurate guns in days gone by. i will never forget the .40 cal muzzle loader i got to look at with a cherry wood stock, it was at a resort in northern minn. it was from the 1840s in almost in as new condition. the fit to the wood and the metal work was perfect, as well as the browning of the metal. the octagon barrel had sharp edges. you could see the rifling and it was clean and crisp. no doubt it would shoot good. i could just never figure out what a old .40 cal was doinging in bear country. i also saw a rimfire smith and wesson break action rifle up in the blackhills. worth thousands and in perfect shape. it was given to a man by an old neighbor and he didnt know what he had. guns like these when made perfectly shot well and took a lot of game.

[Lead pot]

Video never stated a range I heard.

Gabby.
I shot that target but I cant remember if it was 1130 or 1230 some yards. That buffalo is on the hillside on the Silhouette range at the Whittington center at Raton, NM.

[44minimum]

Find out if there was ever a Frank Wesson Number One Midrange And Sporting used in a Creedmore match? Ha! It was hard enough just finding a picture of the dang thing and any other information. Apparently they came in three chambering's, and I want my little killer guy to be using one chambered in .40/100. And I cant even find out for sure which cartridge this would be, Frank Wesson liked to use some standard chambering's in his rifles, such as the .40/90 .40/100 sharps cartridge, and he also liked to chamber his rifles in cartridges of his own concoction. That number two Frank Wesson in the NRA Museum says it could have been used at Creedmore, but I have no idea where to look to find out exactly what rifles were used at each match. I have been in contact with Steve Earle, several cartridge collectors and have left questions on three different gun boards this week, but no one knows hardly anything about these critters. A guy in California wrote a book about Frank Wesson, but these books are for hundred dollars and I will not be getting one. He sent one of them to Steve Earle and from the best they can determine, there were seven of these Frank Wesson number one midrange and sporting rifles produced.

So, using one of these rifles to shoot a man at 500 yards in the field, perhaps using a set of shooting sticks- .40 caliber, 390 grain bullet moving at 1450 fps-is the consensus that it is doable by a good shot using a vernier site? If you read about someone doing this several times in a book, would you think that it was rubbish?

[Lead pot]

I just got some of my old range books out and checked on one man sized iron target on the Shiloh range in Mt. that is about 718 720 yards in the shadows. This silhouette was drawn with a small man lying on the plate and they outlined him with chalk. I don't think he weight 150 lbs and about 5'6" or 5'8" tall. I was using my .40-70SS and hit him 3 out of five shots with the first and second shot hitting and missed two and hit the last shot. So I don't think if one knew his rifle shots at over 600 yards on a man sized target is that hard to make.

[GabbyM]

Gabby.
I shot that target but I cant remember if it was 1130 or 1230 some yards. That buffalo is on the hillside on the Silhouette range at the Whittington center at Raton, NM.

Good shooting .
Ding ding.