Vetterli centerfire conversion

[Bob S]

Jack:

Geez, that range looks familiar. North Grafton??

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[jhrosier]

Bob,
All of New England looks about the same.
The range is The Quaboag Sportsmans Club, in Warren, MA.

Jack

[Bob S]

Jack:

The layout of the 100 yard and 200 yard berms is the same as it was in North Grafton in 1973 or '74 ... probably the last time I shot there, before I went back in the Navy. That was my "civilian year". This pic is at Westfield. I'm the only guy with a beard.



Back on topic: I have enjoyed your posts on the Vette. I have four of them hanging around here: one fully converted, the others in various stages of neglect. I use the custom Lee mould that was designed for the Swiss cartridge by Eric Timrud, and it works perfectly. Eric shot his Vette in one of the first "Vintage Foreign Military Bolt" matches at Camp Perry ... he had to get special dispensation to use it, since it is obviously not "as issued" with the CF conversion ... and I'm pretty sure he managed to get a medal with it. (They allow a ridiculously long time for the rapid fire stage ... 90 seconds, I think. He is an experienced HP shooter, so he said he had no problem loading the second five rounds in the time limit.)

The groove diameter of my shooter is .430. I use CH dies, but thay have a .427 expander, so I use a Lyman 44 "M" die for that part of the loading process.

I also have a Peabody in process of being converted to CF. Just too many projects going on at once!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[jhrosier]

Bob,
Great "vintage" photo. (Makes you feel old, Eh?)
I wonder where all of those fellows are shooting now.

The Vetterli project has put a lot of the fun back into shooting and I'm going to have to get busy with my loading pretty quick.

I am also a fan of the Lyman 'M' die for cast boolit loading. I now have a mini lathe and a length of 1/2" drill rod so I will be making expander plugs for lots of different diameter boolits. I find that the step up at the mouth of the case allows the boolit to be started without excessive belling of the case mouth and that has to improve case life. I can't help but think that the good accuracy that I have been getting with cast boolits in all of my rifles is due, in part, to the use of the 'M' die.

I hope that you will take the time to do a writeup on the Peabody when it is completed.
What is the original caliber of the Peabody?

Jack

[Bob S]

Jack:

Mr. Peabody is an 1866 Swiss contract rifle, 10.4 x 38RF, same as the Vette. As built by Providence tool Co., the barrels had the 3-groove shallow rifling that was common to US martial arms of the time. Rumor has it that the Swiss were not pleased with the three groove barrels, and had a program to systematically replace them with four deep groove barrels with the deep countersink that is used on the Vette. They didn't convert all of them, because I have a few acquaintences that own rifles with the original 3-groove barrels. Mine has the 4 groove barrel with Swiss proofs.

I paid a whopping $785 for mine from Stefan Mahrer AKA "SwissDagger", and that included the shipping from Switzerland. I could not find one on this side of the pond in comparable condition for twice that. I got on the Swiss Peabody band wagon a little late ... several years ago, all you had to do to make it CF was to purchase a Roumanian contract breechblock and firing pin from Dixie, change out the parts, and you were ready to rock 'n roll. Once the word got out, Dixe ran out of the CF parts, although when I bought mine (~5 years ago), they still had RF blocks and pins, so I got those parts to alter, leaving the original to be put away for "restoration" if the spirit ever moves me in that direction. The parts are still sitting in a bin someplace in the shop ...

I have been thinking lately, that I may "convert" some cases to "rim fire" with an offset pistol primer, like Dixe did with some of the old rimfires like the 56-50, &tc. Since this is a single shot, it's no big deal to orient the case while chambering it. IIRC, there was one guy on the original Swiss Rifle Forum that did this so he could shoot his Millbank-Amsler (Swiss version of a trapdoor, 10.3 x38RF).

More on this soon, hopefully.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Black Wolf]

Other than using a .44 mag die to form .41 Swiss brass, could someone explain what die to use for forming .41 swiss brass? I've never formed brass in my reloading experience and would like to see if it is possible for me to do it.

I have the Lee .41 Swiss die set - is it possible to form .41 Swiss brass using 348 winchester brass with that die set?

[gzig5]

BW,
I've made all my brass the hard way, with various dies to neck down and make the shoulder. I've not seen the Lee dies, but there should be no reason that you can't form in your size die. Probably would help to trim to approximate length, neck down in steps first and make sure you use plenty of lube. I recommnend Imperial Sizing Wax.
Greg

PS.. you might want to remove the sizing button for the first pass.

[mag44uk]

FWIW. I tried the 44 sizer and ended up with offset necks that looked a bit odd. I then used 45/70,45 colt and then the 44 sizer. This seemed a bit more gentle on the 348 winny brass. Roughly cut to length. Simply loaded with large pistol primer,AA5744 and custom Lee 330 grain bullet to fire form the cases then finally trimmed to length. Its worth checking your chamber to ascertain case length. Best to go for length so as to get a decent neck length.
Tony

[Black Wolf]

Got a chance to check my over all cartridge length.
It looks like my old rifle has a very generous throat.



The first cartridge is the gauge. 1.805"
The second cartridge is 1.770" and should be able to
use the first crimp groove on the LEE 310Gr. and
give me a OAL of 2.20".
the third cartridge is one that is 1.680" long with a
LEE 310Gr. loaded to a OAL of 2.20".


Swede Nelson

Gentlemen, in the post above Swede Nelson states he seated the 310gr Lee bullet at the first crimp groove. Is that actually the crimp groove or isn't that the lube groove? Unlike the pic above, I've been seating my bullet at the 2nd groove from the top of the bullet (a bit deeper than Swede's).

Just checking because my Lee 310 bullets, when panned lubed, fill the bottom two grooves with lube (note: the 2 lube grooves I'm talking about are not shown in the pic above as they are inside the case neck).

Maybe this may make it easier to understand my question: In the Cast boolit Logo for this sight you'll see a cartoon bullet. The first groove from the nose of the bullet is thinner than the larger groove below it. The Lee 310 bullet is similar except it has 2 thin grooves and 2 thick grooves. It was my understanding that the thin groove is the crimp groove and thicker groove is the lube groove. Could I be mistaken?

[jhrosier]

Black Wolf,

Since this boolit is not designed for the 10.4 cartridge, the boolit is seated to an AOL of 2.20".
If it happens to fall in an existing groove, that is great, otherwise just crimp lightly where it falls.
The chambers have an extremely long & tapered throat so the case length is made to be maximum, then trimmed back as needed to suit the boolit geometry.

Jack

[Black Wolf]

Ok - I've actually just been single feeding them manually for test firings. I just was confused as to the difference between all the grooves on the bullet. I assumed the 2 top grooves were crimp grooves and the bottom (fatter) grooves were the lube grooves. My groups at 100 yards really s-u-c-k, about 14" group - not even close to being accurate - but at least I got this ole 127-yr old girl shooting again - that's always a plus.

[jhrosier]

Black Wolf,
Load them up with Hodgdons Triple7 and a large pistol magnum primer.
Mine shoot pretty good with this powder.

Jack

ETA:see posting #4 for my targets

[reivertom]

Great info. I've been intriqued by those guns, but I never knew how to go about shooting one until recently. I like your tutorial. Good work. Years ago i remember an oldtimer gunsmith talking about the .41 Swiss. He said the bullets were so slow (old rimfires) that he could pull the trigger and set the gun down and sip his coffee before the bullet hit the target. He tended to exaggerate.

[jhrosier]

Thanks reivertom,
If your gunsmith was shooting past 200 yards, he may not be exaggerating much.

Jack

[carlschulz]

I got my Vetterli in 2002. I had the center fire conversion done in 2003 and got 20 rounds as part of the deal. It's pretty ugly (I call it the Frankenvetterli) but it shot great. Tight groups at 100 yards. Unfortuneatly I haven't shot it since. I'm in the process of tracking down what I need to form some brass and load it up.

Next on my list is my Dutch Beaumont and 577-450 Martini Henry

[dubber123]

A few pics of the one my brother and I have been fooling with: [img][/img]

[dubber123]

[img][/img] If you can see it, this is the safety we made. A notch is welded to the back of the trigger, and a sliding block with an on/off detent is placed behind it. It is a notched bar that uses the rear trigger guard bow as a guide, so it can't bind. Works great.

[dubber123]

[img][/img]

[dubber123]

[img][/img]

[smokemjoe]

I see you have put a different rear sight on, I have to JB weld a post behine the front sight to bring mine down the bullet, What have you guys done. Thanks- Joe