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Thread: New 1:14 twist 30-06

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
    Pat, that is not the question you were asked about. If you can't relate what you learned about slow twist barrels, then please refrain from tirades. Basically, the idea that slow twist barrels are twist limited and not for general all around use IS what needs to be established so the less knowledgeable people know not to spend money on something that has been made to appear a cure-all for their problems. What they are capable of along with the boolit weight and velocity range they work in would be a great help to everybody here. You seem to say that with numerous posts, but won't say. Why not if you have the experience and knowledge?

    For the record, the CBA does not shoot matches I'm interested in and are never likely to given the benchrest type nature of those matches... plus, ALL the individuals who so aptly wanted to see, had a dog in the fight. One could hardly be objective in such an atmosphere such as was provided by the rhetoric espoused or expect an honest report of the results given that same rhetoric without uninvolved witnesses of standing here watching.
    I'd hardly consider what I wrote a tirade and I do feel I answered your questions. Who decides what's "general all around use"? I'd be willing to bet at least 95% of the people shooting cast bullets never shoot past 200 yards and probably 99% never shoot past 100. For the vast majority of cast bullet riflemen out there an under an inch 170 gr bullet in a 16 twist would be the perfect fast general use combination. It's not that I can't relate what I've learned about slow twist barrels it's that you can't or won't understand it for some unknown reason. Your answer is always some obscure "if you really know what your doing" thing while ignoring the advise and knowledge gained and willingly shared by people that do know what they're doing and have actually done it. I'll repeat what I believe and have said at least 100 times about .30 caliber velocity and twist rate one more time. Starting with a 10 twist you're going to find your best accuracy at around 1850 fps. For every inch slower twist you can add about 100 fps or so. I've proven it to myself with an assortment of .30 caliber match barrels and study of the CBA match results backs up my personal findings.

    I don't buy your "dog in the fight" argument. What would anyone possibly have to gain by lying about how someone shot or the velocity they got. The people I was referring to that had a chance to see what would happen were friends of yours at the time and when I offered to come down and witness your claims I offered to bring my chronograph and a camera so there'd be no hanky panky. I also offered to let you bring unbiased witnesses who had "no dog in this fight". This isn't a me against you thing. It's all about being truthful and realistic about what cast bullets can do. The old "your methodology is wrong" thing can only work for so long before someone is going to want more than words on a web page as proof. Why keep trying to convince someone that they're doing something wrong when in reality they're trying to do something that ain't gonna work. Bottom line for everyone is keep the 10 twist .30s around 1800 fps or so and listen to the guys that have actual experience and you'll live long and prosper. Try to get the velocities with accuracy claimed by some proven by none and you'll have nothing but frustration. I also wish people would stop calling what we're talking about " Larry's theory" because it's a fact and known about long before Larry talked about it here.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    I've enjoyed reading this thread and have nothing to add except for all of you to re-read Larry's posts, then to dust off dust off your statics and dynamics textbook, review strength of materials, and then write a 1000-word summary explaining "hoop stress."

    My best. 30-'06 cast bullet rifle WAS a 14" twist by Homer Culver wth barrel by P.J. Hart, chambered with a .337" neck on a Hart 1a heavy varmint action, ca. 1980s.

    You guys have succeeded in reinventing the wheel. Thanks.

    No longer have the Hart 1A, but do have a 14" twist Douglas with min. SAAMI chamber for my switch-barrel Sako A2 and I'm going to have to drag it out now for Larry. Should be fun!
    If you go to the trouble and expense of a reasonably dimensioned, quality barrel, then take the equivalent hour-load of the classes you suggest in Cast Boolits 411 and 412, with a review of Strength of Materials, you may find that your twist rate is irrelevant provided it achieves minimal stabilization of the boolit. Problem is, there may only be two or three current forum members who have bothered to do that.

    Gear

  3. #183
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    No statics or dynamics for me. Not interested in revisiting that much math.

  4. #184
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    All I remember is that the indefinite integral of e to the power of [x] equals the function of f times u to the [n]th power. Basic calculus.

    Gear

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Outpost

    How about posting some accuracy results (with all the neat details of course) with your rifle?

    Larry Gibson
    YES, pictures, we have enough words
    IHMSA # 566 "time sure flies when you're having FUN"

  6. #186
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    Char-Gar brought up a good point several posts ago. The 14 twist is great for bullets in the same weight and length over diameter range as a Sierra 168. Much heavier, or longer, and you'll find it won't shoot as well.

    Now many years ago I shot Hunter Class benchrest with a blueprinted Rem 700 and a 14 twist barrel in .308. It was a legitimate .25 MOA rifle with 168s and 40.5 to 41.5 H4895. Heavier bullets did not fare as well. At the time, there were no lighter .30 bullets that would shoot as well as the Sierra 168.

    Enjoy your rifle - or rather continue to enjoy it!

  7. #187
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    If you go to the trouble and expense of a reasonably dimensioned, quality barrel, then take the equivalent hour-load of the classes you suggest in Cast Boolits 411 and 412, with a review of Strength of Materials, you may find that your twist rate is irrelevant provided it achieves minimal stabilization of the boolit. Problem is, there may only be two or three current forum members who have bothered to do that.

    Gear
    A good true point........ a lot of people think they have achieved it all, even among some of the benchrest crowd. That would be a false assumption.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Would if I could find the logs, but they were lost between one of a dozen moves since then. Sold the Hart 1A, but I know where it is and hopefully the current owner still has that barrel. As I recall we got very acceptable results using a 190-gr. Hoch nose-pour cast 50-50 monotype and wheelweights, quenched, with the old M&N lube and 54 grs. of W760, not half minute, but consistently sub-minute to 200 yards. Velocity was about 2450 fps.

    I currently have a 14" twist Douglas .30-'06 barrel with ordinary SAAMI chamber for my switch-barrel Sako A2, I'll be working up some full-charge loads with that in the spring using the HM2.312-160-5 bullets from the group buy, so wee how it does with loads heavy enough to cycle my M1.
    Understand the "losing" of stuff in moves.......

    Awesome on the new rifle, looking forward to reports from you.

    Larry Gibson

  9. #189
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    As I recall we got very acceptable results using a 190-gr. Hoch nose-pour cast 50-50 monotype and wheelweights, quenched, with the old M&N lube and 54 grs. of W760, not half minute, but consistently sub-minute to 200 yards. Velocity was about 2450 fps.

    Perhaps 45 2.1 should grab a clue from the above. Seems he continually chooses to ignore the success with the 311041, 311291 and the 311299 (170 - 200 gr cast bullets) that has been reported here by myself and a couple others using 14" twist '08s and '06s. He keeps harping on "lack of versatility" of the slower twists but has failed to take my advice and get one and then talk the talk.

    eck0313

    Bullet stability, for a given twist, is dependent on bullet length not on bullet weight as some here seem to think. Your example of the 168 MKs in the 14" twist illustrates that point exactly. The 168 MKs are 1.248" (+/_) and obviously shoot extremely well in your 14" twist rifle. They do min my 14" twist rifle also. Heavier match j bullets are of course longer, especially the VLD type, and do not shoot as well because they are minimally stabilized. However, we ARE talking cast bullets here, are we not? The fact is the heavy (200 gr) 311299 w/GC is 1.196" (+/-) long. That is shorter than the 168 MK and is the reason the 14" twist stabilizes that heavy 311299 cast bullet quite well.

    We all know that is contrary to 45 2.1's argument and contrary to his and geargnasher's very self stated schooling. But it is fact that a 30 cal barrel with a 14" twist chambered in .308W or '06 (or similar cartridges) will indeed shoot the "heavier" cast bullets of 160 - 200 gr very well indeed, a ballistic fact that is easily proven.

    Larry Gibson

  10. #190
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    "I also wish people would stop calling what we're talking about " Larry's theory" because it's a fact and known about long before Larry talked about it here."

    Yup, not my "theory" at all. I explained that in the very beginning and who knows how many times since.........but the mentioned "two or three current forum members" apparently haven't comprehended that or the historical facst or the laws of physics/ballistics.....even though they pretend that copying a calculi's equation is understanding it.............

    Can we get back to the OPs intent for this thread instead of the usual BS? So ok, "two or three current forum members" don't buy off on the RPM threshold concept......how about just letting us that do have a peaceful and decent discussion? The "two or three current forum members" could start their own thread and actually prove the RPM theory/concept wrong with facts, could they not? Would be refreshing to carry on a conversation about this w/o the bickering and simply stick with proven facts and science.

    Larry Gibson

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    All I remember is that the indefinite integral of e to the power of [x] equals the function of f times u to the [n]th power. Basic calculus.

    Gear
    I refer the Jethro Bodine method, where 1+1=3
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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    "I also wish people would stop calling what we're talking about " Larry's theory" because it's a fact and known about long before Larry talked about it here."

    Yup, not my "theory" at all. I explained that in the very beginning and who knows how many times since.........but the mentioned "two or three current forum members" apparently haven't comprehended that or the historical facst or the laws of physics/ballistics.....even though they pretend that copying a calculi's equation is understanding it.............

    Can we get back to the OPs intent for this thread instead of the usual BS? So ok, "two or three current forum members" don't buy off on the RPM threshold concept......how about just letting us that do have a peaceful and decent discussion? The "two or three current forum members" could start their own thread and actually prove the RPM theory/concept wrong with facts, could they not? Would be refreshing to carry on a conversation about this w/o the bickering and simply stick with proven facts and science.

    Larry Gibson
    It takes two Larry.
    I see folks on both sides of the fence doin a lot of postulating and not posting too many pictures of personal groups.
    I for one, am still on the fence about the whole RPM thing. No offense to you, but I respectfully disagree as I believe the damage done to the boolit in the first inch of the barrel is the limiting factor, and not the RPM per se'.
    I am going to be doing my own experiments on this issue in the spring, and when I'm sure I have something to post, I'm going to open this can of worms myself in a dedicated thread.
    I will give you fair warning, I will delete any jab thrown at another member, as well as any post that does not have pertinent information in it. I want to find the truth about this once and for all, and I am not biased either way. I have bent over backwards to help the good people of this forum to learn and to grow in their knowledge, and this constant fighting about a vague issue is juvenile.
    For the record, I consider knowledgeable people on both sides of this issue as personal friends, and I refuse to turn back on that over an issue like this.
    We are scientists. Rather than beating each other up over an issue that is hard to prove we should be putting our heads together and finding out the truth of it.
    I would like to see that become a reality, and I'm willing to go the extra mile with each of you great fellers as I have great respect for your abilities (despite your individual prickly personalities).
    We should have been past this a long time ago, and 2014 is going to be the year if you care to help me and all the other posters figure it out (speaking to Larry, Bob, and all of their followers/cohorts).
    I desperately want to know the truth of his issue, to the satisfaction of all the evidence, and so do a lot of other people. Problem is, I'm not willing to accept a big assumption, and ignore a big piece of evidence before moving forward, therefore, I scrutinize everything.
    I would like to ask all who read this to watch for the thread I will start, and please prepare to experiment, prepare to learn, and please throw out the presupposed ideas, and help us learn.
    I hope that when all the smoke clears, everyone will still be members here, and the thread will be a reference for future posters.

    Now, that being said, please move on, and let Nobade enjoy his new rifle.

    Nobade, I apologize for this. Congratulations on a good rifle! I'm going to have to try your duplex load someday.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  13. #193
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    I have sat here this morning and read this entire thread. I don't have a side that I am on, I deferr to the fact that the posters here are far more knowledgeable than me and have enjoyed and learned quite a bit from the thread.

    The constant in this thread that I see is the less damaged or altered the boolit is when it leaves the barrel, the more likely you will find accuracy at higer velocities.

    The fact that pp boolits seem to be able to shoot well with higher velocities, than conventional grooved lead, and the results from the gentleman who got pretty dang good results from the saboted .22's at 4000 fps plus seem to agree with what I see. I mean I would think that the grooved boolits would be the most damaged/altered and the saboted the least and the pp falling in between the two.

    With that said, could it be that finding a method of rifleing that damaged the projectile less, would also lead to higher velocities with accuracy?
    A very interesting experiment would be rifles of the same twist but with different types of rifleing, micro groove, hexagonal, etc. or maybe even looking to which style would be the most cast friendly.

    Just my 2 cents, Thanks to all for some very good and insightful information.

  14. #194
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    Goodsteel

    Jab all you want but you might consider the difference between interior ballistics (which you seem stuck on) and what happens to the bullet in flight (that's exterior ballistics). You are correct, it does "take two". Go back through the thread and see who started the jabs first.....but that doesn't really matter as I will jab back when jabbed....seems only fair enough......btw; do you think you are one of the "two or three current forum members"? If you read that correctly the jab was at you as well as I and everyone else here except the "two or three current forum members".

    I for one, am still on the fence about the whole RPM thing. No offense to you, but I respectfully disagree as I believe the damage done to the boolit in the first inch of the barrel is the limiting factor, and not the RPM per se'.

    We all strive to launch that perfect bullet. But do we? No we don't and thus it is what occurs to the imperfect cast bullet in flight (that's the exterior ballistics) that acts upon the imperfection to the cast bullet that occur during casting, loading and inside the barrel (the internal ballistics part). Were the adverse affects of RPM (actually centrifugal force) not there in flight we could shoot the most unbalanced bullets and they would be just as accurate as the perfectly balanced bullets all other things being equal.

    You might also consider the fact that even the "two or three current forum members" agree that slowing down the time/pressure curve is necessary for HV cast bullet loads. A study of time/pressure curves will show you the acceleration to the bullet, hence potential damage to the bullet, occurs well beyond the first inch of travel in the barrel.

    You want the truth once and for all? Then simply run the test I have outlined to you and others numerous times. if you forget I can easily repost as the test is simple and easy. Actually you have probably (from you other posts) already ran the test but simply didn't realize it. Have you ever worked up a cast bullet load with a 9.5 - 10" twist barrel? As you increased the powder charge at some load the accuracy began to go with a flyer or two. Then at a load above that accuracy totally went south. If you chronographed those loads or where accuracy remained good and did the math I'll bet the RPM was below 140,000. If I am wrong then say so and give the details?

    Larry Gibson

    I'm done with this thread as it's getting out of hand. If you want to comment to me PM me.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 12-04-2013 at 02:36 PM.

  15. #195
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    Tim,

    If you have a way to do it, you can mount my 308 barrel and use that for your testing. It is a 1 in12, chrome lined, and is sub MOA out to 700 yds all day long. It can't be rechambered or anything, but you can use it for your tests. It is a known accurate barrel.

  16. #196
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    Will do Larry.

    Thanks for the offer LL, but I would have to have another FN in order to properly utilize that barrel. Besides, I'm building a rifle for these tests that has a 1-11.5 twist. I just wish I could get a few other barrels for it in different twists and calibers. Who knows, maybe I'll come into enough money to run the full spectrum. For now though, I'm going with 308.
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-04-2013 at 01:47 PM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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GC Gas Check