New 1:14 twist 30-06

[Nobade]

Thanks to some suggestions here, I finally got my 1:14 twist Remington 30-06 finished up. Blueprinted action, refinished ADL stock, Brux barrel, Manson match reamer, pillar bedded with a Vortex scope on top. I got to shoot it today for the firat time, and I think I'm going to like it! I was using Ranch Dog 165gr. tumble lube boolits, and IMR 4895. Started with 38gr, and worked up to 47gr. Best groups were at 44 gr, with 5 shots into just over 1/2 inch at 100 yards. I didn't chronograph it, but it has to be running around 2450 fps according to Quickload. For shooting a bullet completely not optimized to the rifle, lubed with liquid alox, I am impressed. Even the top loads I tried held 1.5 MOA and I still had a black bore. This slow twist stuff really works! There's no way I could ever get a normal 1:10 30-06 rifle to do that. Next time out I'll try some paper patched loads and some RCBS 165SIL with real lube. Should be fun to see what this rig is ultimately capable of. Now I am wishing I had gone with 1:16 twist, but this will keep me entertained for some time as it is.

-Nobade

[Dthunter]

Good job!
Well chosen barrel twist!
Be sure to try the slower powders like 4350,4831 with some heavier bullets. The 311299,311644 should really shoot well! My 308win loves them.
Good luck and keep us posted!

[Larry Gibson]

Love it when a "plan" comes together. Something to be said for keeping cast bullets, especially those "shooting a bullet completely not optimized to the rifle", under the RPM threshold at high velocity.

Larry Gibson

[Green Lizzard]

larry after 40 years of shooting 30-30 cast single shot, lever, bolt action, pump action 10 twist and 12 twist i am 100% sold on the rpm threshold

[Larry Gibson]

larry after 40 years of shooting 30-30 cast single shot, lever, bolt action, pump action 10 twist and 12 twist i am 100% sold on the rpm threshold

Most CF rifle cast bullet shooters are very aware of the existence of the RPM threshold. They may not call it that but whatever they call it it's the same. A few die hard hold outs who won't admit it's there but most are coming around.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Well Larry, since you mentioned me among "A few die hard hold outs", I'll respond. Nobade posted this in part:

Blueprinted action, refinished ADL stock, Brux barrel, Manson match reamer, pillar bedded with a Vortex scope on top. I got to shoot it today for the first time, and I think I'm going to like it! I was using Ranch Dog 165gr. tumble lube boolits, and IMR 4895. Started with 38gr, and worked up to 47gr. Best groups were at 44 gr, with 5 shots into just over 1/2 inch at 100 yards. I didn't chronograph it, but it has to be running around 2450 fps according to Quickload. For shooting a bullet completely not optimized to the rifle, lubed with liquid alox, I am impressed. Even the top loads I tried held 1.5 MOA and I still had a black bore. This slow twist stuff really works! There's no way I could ever get a normal 1:10 30-06 rifle to do that.

Seems like he built a custom rifle, along a benchrester's methods, to achieve that. Most bench rest rifles built like that shoot quite well. The altered color text above shows those items. The comparison to a standard production factory rifle should show that......... Twist has little to do with it, when you know what your doing, since that level of performance can be done with standard factory rifles in the normal 10" twist.

[Char-Gar]

You have a double throw down, double clutching, E flat. super dooper cast bullet rifle.

I owned for about 20 years an 03 Springfield (30-06) with a 1-14 Phifer barrel. It was the best shooting cast bullet rifle I ever shot.

It would shoot up to 165 grain jackets bullets with wonderful accuracy, 180 grain bullets not so much.

Many years ago, I figured out a slower twist barrel treated cast bullets better than a faster twist as long as the bullet was stabilized. We have known this for generations. A slower twist barrel can push cast bullets faster with accuracy than one with a slower barrel. There is no secret mojo that enables a faster twist barrel to shoot the same bullet as fast as a slower twist barrel with equal accuracy.

I never heard of the RPM stuff until a few years ago, but I proved the effect of slower vs. faster twist to myself over and over again.

[45 2.1]

There is no secret mojo that enables a faster twist barrel to shoot the same bullet as fast as a slower twist barrel with equal accuracy.

Nothing secret about it at all to get that accuracy mentioned by the OP in a 10 twist, but it is not discussed here other than by Starmetal and I (the bench rest folks understand the basic principle quite well). It does depend on what you know also.... after all, your signature line says "It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary." Mileage varies a lot here, wouldn't you say............

[Dthunter]

Most CF rifle cast bullet shooters are very aware of the existence of the RPM threshold. They may not call it that but whatever they call it it's the same. A few die hard hold outs who won't admit it's there but most are coming around.

Larry Gibson

Absolutely Larry! There is simply a physical limit in/to every alloys tensile strength potential. Finding it, and making it work to your best advantage is the key.

[Nobade]

Wow, I didn't know this would stir up so much discussion! I will say though that I have a M1 with a 1:10 barrel on it and the chamber is cut with the same reamer. Now bearing in mind this is an M1 and not a bolt gun, and wears regular iron sights, it is still a lot fussier about cast boolit loads than the slow twist Remington. It does shoot very well after I found a load it likes, but only at 2100 fps and only this particular load. I don't have enough trigger time with the Remington yet, but seeing how it grouped reasonably well with a huge range of loads already I think it is going to be quite easy to work with.

Thanks for the comments, keep 'em coming!

-Nobade

[TXGunNut]

Congrats, sounds like a nice rifle. Computer issues tonight, pics of your new baby didn't download.

[Nrut]

Hi Nobabe,
Does your reamer cut a tapered neck or a straight neck?
ie. can you neck turn your cases?
Thanks

[nanuk]

...Twist has little to do with it, when you know what your doing, since that level of performance can be done with standard factory rifles in the normal 10" twist.

I thought this thread would raise your hackles.

but I do have a serious question:
Why is often stated that with the same guns, it is easier to get accuracy at higher velocity with a slower twist vice a faster twist, all else being equal?
Surely it can't be a coincidence?

[45 2.1]

Wow, I didn't know this would stir up so much discussion! I will say though that I have a M1 with a 1:10 barrel on it and the chamber is cut with the same reamer. Now bearing in mind this is an M1 and not a bolt gun, and wears regular iron sights, it is still a lot fussier about cast boolit loads than the slow twist Remington. Nobade

Nobade, it sounds like you have a fine rifle... enjoy it. The Garand will go in the high 2200 to the lower 2300s with better than ball accuracy if you learn how.

I thought this thread would raise your hackles.

but I do have a serious question:
Why is often stated that with the same guns, it is easier to get accuracy at higher velocity with a slower twist vice a faster twist, all else being equal?
Surely it can't be a coincidence?

No hackles at all nanuk, I just find poor information from the flat earth society redundant (you can't sail but so far or you'll fall off) since the world is round (and has progressed farther than 80's technology that's being touted).
There are enough myths and bad information to wade through without this stuff being touted as proven. The point is that twist makes little difference (within the normal factory twist usual choices) if you pay attention to the pertinent things that matter.

On your question..... it entails a lot of jacketed experimentation. Several gun writers have taken most available samples the cartridge comes in along with the entire twist range with quite a few factory loads... the results were the faster twists shot them all better.......... With cast?.... it entirely revolves around boolit type, fit and tolerances along with a rifle that is put together reasonably well (quite a few have serious problems). You can get accuracy easier with some things, but you limit your choices by doing so and the range of loads you can shoot diminishes with a slow twist. That is well proven.

[Dthunter]

Have any of you cast boolet shooters ever pushed a 200 grain boolet at 2350-2400fps in a 308 (with a 1:10" twist), AND shot it inside 1-1/2 to 2MOA out to 6-700+ yards? Repeatedly? I sure tried!
(Paper patched boolets dont apply here)

I have tired MANY times with a few different rifles. No such luck.

As soon as I switched to a 1:12" twist, everything changed!

I even went so far as to get/buy a second rifle in 1:12" twist to compare. VERY similar results!
Over a few thousand rounds of testing, I am more than convinced that the twist rate and acceleration/rate of pressure imparted to a boolet during the initial stages of the firing sequence govern everything that follows.

It stands to reason that if you impart a given pressure to a boolet base at a given rate.

And, if you compare the stress that "ANY" alloy experiences at this pressure, and compare the torque values on the boolet alloy (shear strength value) between a 1:10" and a 1:12" twist has on a boolet, the 1:12" twist will ALWAYS creat less torsional/torque on a boolet. It is simply slower.

When a reloader loads for high performance/pressure (velocity with accuacy) on a given boolet, the 1:10" twist will most certainly encounter its physical limit before a 1:12" twist will "given the same load parameters." Its just physics really.

I am not saying that 1:10" twist cannot reach this velocity. Some shooters have. But, the exception does not make " THE RULE".

I am saying that to reach these velocities with accuracy in a 1:10"
Twist, the stars have to align wayyy better!

Hopefully my explanation was clear and understandable.

The 1:14" twist would certainly be interesting to experiment with!

[Green Lizzard]

maybe if you had a perfect mold and alloy optimized for your (perfect gun), but i shoot a lot of lees in old 788

[Nobade]

Hi Nobabe,
Does your reamer cut a tapered neck or a straight neck?
ie. can you neck turn your cases?
Thanks

It has some taper to it. I originally wanted to get a reamer with a straight neck for this rifle, but time and money constraints prevented that from happening and since I had this nearly brand new reamer that the shop recently bought I went ahead and used that.

-Nobade

[Larry Gibson]

Dthunter is obviously of the "flat earth society" in that he understands and believes in the laws of physics. I am to obviously. This has all been hashed out so many times. Nobade is obviously pleased with his rifle and I'm sure he will find it quite fun and useful. I have, as I'm sure most know, done a lot of comparison testing both of velocity and pressures in 10, 12 and 14" twist .308Ws. I've done a lot of the same with 7, 9, 12 and 14" twist .223 Remingtons. The RPM threshold is real. Those that claim it is not have yet to demonstrate such by shooting their claimed moa and sub moa cast bullet groups from 10" or faster twist rifles at their claimed 2400+ fps velocities. I am more than happy to demonstrate 1 1/2 moa accuracy with the 311466 at 2600 fps from my 14" twist Palma rifle to anyone any time. 45 2.1 and his banned cohort are not.....there in lay the "myths and bad information" of which he speaks.

Many, many cast bullet shooters come up against the RPM threshold all the time. They know it's there and understand. The RPM threshold can be pushed upwards but as 45 2.1 truthfully says; "it entirely revolves around boolit type, fit and tolerances" and additionally the acceleration rate through the use of slower burning propellants. As to 45 2.1s claim of; "along with a rifle that is put together reasonably well (quite a few have serious problems)" which I find ludicrous in that he and his cohort claim to shoot sub moa cast bullet accuracy at HV in every rifle including milsurps.......

As to limiting your choices.....perhaps 45 2.1 should get himself a 14" twist '06 or .308W.......he may find that at 2400 - 2600+ fps they stabilized cast bullets of 118 gr (lightest I've shot in mine) to 200 gr 311299s. If that "limits your choices" then so be it, call me a "redundant" charter member of the flat earth society. If you are building a rifle such as Nobade has then why "limit" yourself with the frustration of a fast twist barrel when the slower twist is proven to shoot so well without all the witchcraft, magic and old wives tales 45 2.1 tells us is necessary with the fast twists barrels.

Larry Gibson

[nanuk]

The earth isn't flat???? Next you will tell me that Mankind creates global warming and oil production causes earthquakes!

[Nrut]

The earth isn't flat???? Next you will tell me that Mankind creates global warming and oil production causes earthquakes!

Well where you live the earth is flat!