A question on seating/crimp dies

[bedbugbilly]

New to reloading and just have a question on seating/crimp dies. I don't want this to end up a green is better, blue is better, red is better as everyone has their likes and dislikes. I'm just looking for some unbiased advice . . .

First off, I'm reloading 38/357 - pretty simple I know. I started off getting a 4 die set from Lee . . .

One of the things I'm not understanding is the "4 die" thing . . . . I'm getting ready to set up my turret press and before I start my actual reloading, I don't understand why there is a seating/crimp die and a "factory crimp die". If my understanding is correct, the seating/crimp die will seat the bullet AND put a crimp in the mouth of the case. . . . the factory crimp will put a rolled crimp on it. If you size/deprime the case, bell with the expansion die and then seat the slug and at the same time it crimps - why the factory crimp die? As I read the instructions with the die set, the factory crimp die will form the roll crimp that you want as well as "size" the finished cartridge on the way in and out of the die. So I'm wondering . . . . is it really necessary to use the factory crimp die? If the seating die seats the slug, forms the crimp and establishes the COAL . . . isn't the crimp already done or is it just "started" and it needs to be "finished" on the factory crimp die?

That leads to question 2 - I'm going to load in batches and I'm not concerned about putting out large quantities in a short time. Is it better to shim the seating die up higher in the press, adjust the seater so that it seats the bullet in the right position for crimp and COAL (this would set the area that wouldl normally perform the crimp in the seating die higher than the case throat) and then perform the crimp as a separate operation in the factory crimp die?

Question 3 - First, I have nothing against the Lee dies or any other makes. I'm trying to put together reloading equipment so I can reload when I'm in MI and in AZ without having to cart stuff back and forth. I have a RCBS Jr single stage for AZ but I want to pick up another set of dies for 38/357. For the simple cartridge that it is, what recommendations can you make for a brand to buy that perhaps would be better - i.e. as far as "reloading steps" go? I'm willing to spend more (than the Lee's) to get a good set that will be a pleasure to use but am unsure of if one make has better features than others? I want carbide but I see a variety of die sets - some with three and some with four - what is the better way to go? I'm loading cast SWC and Round Nose. Here, I have the turret press (Lee) and another RCBS JR - I'm planning on using the JR for any sizing, case trimming and depriming with a universal depraver and the other steps performed on the turret. In AZ, I'll be limited to the single stage JR but again, the time to reload is not an issue.

Sorry for the length of this . . . thanks for the help, explanations and advice.

[joec]

Some people like me prefer to seat and crimp in two steps especially with jacketed bullets. The Lee Factory Crimp die does this well especially for auto feeders. No cast bullets I rarely use the FCD but seat and crimp in one step. It really is a matter of what works for you with it. I don't load 38/357 but do load 9mm, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull and 45-70 using RCBS cowboy dies for the 45 Colt and 45-70 as those I always load with cast bullets.

[Airman Basic]

Get the RCBS cowboy dies for AZ just 'cause they're good lookin' thangs. Work good, too.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you for the info - greatly appreciated.

Airman Basic - that was one set that I was looking at. The biggest problem right now is finding a source that has them in stock. Midway is out of them when I looked as well as many of the other brands.

[bhn22]

Crimping and seating in one step is practical only in straightwall cases like your 38/357 because the bullets normally have a crimp groove in them. Where you can run into issues is primarily on semi-autos when you try to seat and crimp at the same time. At the front of the die you have the crimping shoulder trying to crimp while the seater is still pushing the bullet deeper into the case. This often distorts the bullet, and you end up with a lousy crimp that isn't done correctly either, plus your bullet seating depths are inconsistent. I admit that I do crimp a lot of straightwall cases separately, but it often isn't necessary with a well designed bullet. My "serious" (competition) ammo is all crimped with a Redding Profile Crimp die.

[462]

To each his own, but I seat and crimp in two separate operations using two separate dies. I don't like the one step method, because there is too much happening at once, which may cause inconsistencies.

Lee's carbide handgun factory crimp die is used to assure that a loaded round will chamber in all guns of that caliber. Because it puts the squeeze on the entire round, the die has a bad history of swaging a boolit to a smaller diameter. Some time ago, a member posted a letter from Mr. Lee, in which he explained that the handgun factory crimp die was not developed to be used with lead boolits.

Hornady's Custom Grade New Dimension die sets have an in-line seater die that keeps the case mouth and boolit/bullet in alignment.

[jmort]

"Some time ago, a member posted a letter from Mr. Lee, in which he explained that the handgun factory crimp die was not developed to be used with lead boolits."

Just open it up to the size you want and it works real good.

[Airman Basic]

Thank you for the info - greatly appreciated.

Airman Basic - that was one set that I was looking at. The biggest problem right now is finding a source that has them in stock. Midway is out of them when I looked as well as many of the other brands.

http://www.amazon.com/RCBS-357-Magnu...=rcbs+357+dies
I know, but Amazon has lots of stuff.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks to all for the great information - much appreciated.


jmortimer - having never done it before - could you describe how you "open up" the die? Since it's carbide, what and how? I'm sizing to .358 on the lead slug but I haven't utilized the crimping die yet to really know what the end result size is once the entire cartridge is run in it. I'll certainly do that before doing any alterations to the die but if it ends up swaging the slug under the .358, what or how do I take a .001 or .002 (whatever it ends up to be) off of the areas doing the swaging and keep things concentric? If it needs to be opened up a .001, how do I insure that I'm taking .0005 off of the inside diameter and keep things "round"?

Thanks

[jmort]

I have a machinist do it. Many/most here use 300 then 600 then 1000 grit on a dowel and carefully remove material until it is just right. Lovelife described it very nicely in a recent thread. I will see if I can find it.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you - I'll do a search on his posts and should be able to find it. Thank you all!

[Wayne Smith]

If you are gonna load lead you need an expander die. The RCBS Cowboy dies come with one and so does the Lyman set. I don't think anyone else includes one.

[Sensai]

I'm planning on using the JR for any sizing, case trimming and depriming with a universal depraver and the other steps performed on the turret.

Whatever you decide on, be very careful with those "universal depraver" dies. I find that most of my cases are depraved enough without using one.

[bedbugbilly]

Sensai - LOL - Love it! I didn't catch that! This #%^#&^ computer of mine has a mind of its own! I hate it when you type something and it changes the word as it thinks its choice is better than yours. They are a blessing I guess but I sure miss the simpler days at times when we didn't have 'em - I won't even mention the cell phones! If my dies get "depraved" - I'll post a picture so everyone will know what to look out for!

I ended up going with a set of Hornady dies - the nitrate new dimension or whatever they call 'em. I was able to locate a set of them and I'll be interested in seeing how the seating die works out with their bullet guide system. At this time, my intention is to just load lead but who knows . . . one thing leads to another. At some point I may branch out to 9mm and .380 as well but that will be a ways down the road. Now that I'm set up for 38/357 for pistol I'm kind of getting a hankering to get a .357 rifle - nothing fancy - probably a H & R Handi. I already have been thinking of how to customize one by making a curly maple stock, crescent butt plate and a nice poured pewter nose cap on the forearm - not to mention de-blueing it and then browning it - must be my BP background is leaking through on those thoughts?

Thanks again for the great info - greatly appreciated!

[462]

Hornady seating die note: The sliding sleeve may need to be enlarged, to accommodate a fat-for-caliber cast boolit. A dowel and 400-grit wet/dry paper, followed by 600 or higher to polish will get the job done easily and quickly. Go slow and test often.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks 462 - appreciate the info. I'm using lead but am still going to run them through a .358 sizer to try and keep things consistent. Hopefully they'll work O.K. - if not then I'll try your suggestion. Much appreciated!

[milprileb]

The 3 Die and 4 Die sets for straight wall cases have been on market for a long time.
The accuracy types (I am of that clan..why load half good ammo) prefer seat and crimp functions with separate dies. Recently the trend is you only find 3 Die sets and have to buy a separate crimp die if you go the 4 die route. Yes you can load good enough ammo with the Seat/Crimp all at once die. For a lot of folks that is way good enough .

Been loading 357, 45acp, 44 mag for all of 48 years and firmly believe the 4 die approach is the way to go. I just don't see any benefit to trying to pull on my pants while cinching down my belt at the same time. Can be done mind you but its problematic. Its a good illustration of what a Seat/Crimp die does in a perfect world.

My world is not perfect, I adapt to that.

As to the Lee FCD. It swaged my cast bullets (painfully made to a correct size mind you) and ruined accuracy. I am talking 25 yard and 50 yard accuracy. To those who use the FCD and shoot the AARP 7,10, 15 yd distances, they probably can't see any degradation to their cast bullet accuracy.

Best option for best ammo: No FCD. No 3 Die set. Just note: Best ammo may not really be relevant to most folks as they can't shoot pistols for squat. No offense but
that is a fact. Training corrects that but they don't try.

[bedbugbilly]

I agree with you. My goal is to find a system that works for me that I can create the best rounds that I can. I'd read some on the factory crimp die (Lee) where it had a tendency to de-form lead bullets and I can't see much sense in trying to keep consistency in the bullet diameter only to have it squished down at the last stage. From what I'm hearing (and correct me if I don't have it right) - the best route in regards to the 38/357 and lead bullets would be to use the Lee seating die - adjusted to seat the bullet at the correct depth but not crimp and then readjust the same die so the seating plunger has no contact with the slug but the portion of the die that does the roll crimp can perform the crimp? All things being considered that the finished round will chamber in the cylinder - otherwise you'd have to use the Lee roll crimp die to re-establish the correct dimensions on the finished cartridge so it will chamber? Which, if that was necessary, you'd be back at the place where you run the risk of deforming the lead bullet? With the slugs I'm using, I don't think I'll have to put much of a bell to the mouth to get them to start in so I'm hoping I can just seat in one operation and then put a light to medium crimp in a separate operation.

I understand what you're saying on pulling your pants up and trying to cinch your belt at the same time and I think that is what has had me a little perplexed on this seating/crimp die as far as performing those two operations at the same time - I know it will work but at what cost to putting together a good round.

I'm no Annie Oakley but I try my best given the eye problems I have but agree - to be good and stay good, you need to practice and then practice some more. My results are pretty acceptable (to me for the type of shooting I do) with my '51 Navy but it didn't come by just firing a few cylinders full of rounds. And, I've always appreciated it when some one has stood back and watched me shoot and then give suggestions on what I might change.

Thanks again for the help and advice - I've learned a lot and the advice from those more experienced than I is greatly appreciated!

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

bedbugbilly,

Any brand of die sets on the market will load your cast boolits just fine, as long as you remember most ALL of them were manufactured to load jacketed bullets. The four die sets that allow separate of seating and crimp are preferable in my experience and I'd tried both methods. The pants/belt comparison about is about right. New reloaders especially have a difficult time getting a single die adjusted properly to do both.

But when you separate the two operations, it makes it much easier to adjust and you have much more control over the process. In most cases, you are going to have to open up the crimp die to accomodate a lead boolit, but doing so isn't particularly difficult. But if you're not comfortable, give it to a machinist who can do it for you at a minimal fee most times.

The Lee dies you bought originally will do a great job for reloading pistol, I've have multiple sets I used for many years. I took good care of them, kept them clean and lubed. When I went 100% progressive high volume, high dollar press, I was lucky enough to pick up some Dillon dies specifically designed to reload on a progressive. The ammo the Dillons reload is no better than what I reloaded on the Lees, the operation is just a bit smoother, making things more comfortable for me.

The one thing I would say is, if you can afford it, get at a minimum a Lee Cast Iron Classic Turret, set it up to run fully automated, take the time to tune it and you'll be much happier and work much less to get your pistol ammo together. If you can afford more, get a progressive. Why? Because pistol ammo tends to be shot up at a much faster rate and cranking on a single stage can get very boring.

You can spend more or spend less on the die sets, but spending more doesn't get you any better loaded ammo in most cases. It gets you smoother operation in a progressive. This counts when you get into very high volumes. I shoot a lot of pistol, both action and bullseye. Got pretty good at it over the years. If money got tight, I'd sell my high dollar stuff and go Lee if need be and not worry a wit about the accuracy.

Hope this helps,

Dave

[1hole]

All die sets include decappers - expanders - seaters and all brands work fine. Lyman's two step "M" expander-beller (and Redding's copy) are easily the best all-around expanders avaiable.

Lee's handgun FCD with its post seating carbide sizing ring has one goal; make ammo that feeds/chambers reliably and it works excellant. If totally reliable chambering isn't a problem or doesn't matter to you then any other crimper will work just as well. Even then, the FCD won't even touch the case UNLESS the bullet used is significantly over size and there's no more need for fat cast bullets than for fat jacketed bullets.