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Thread: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

  1. #1
    Slug Master
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    585 HE -- Cases In Production --

    585 HE ---Tested Super Strong --

    If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen
    our 585 HE cartridge and its development. We have barrels
    of cases and more coming.

    We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr
    bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also
    for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found
    that some of 440gr- 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work great.
    THAT IS WHERE the cast use comes in. I have even fired
    440 gr Minie with 4 Pyrodex pellets in the cases.

    First picture shows it next to 505 Gibbs, it has same overall
    loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds up to 190gr ball powder
    under bullets...

    Next pic is a barrel of cases..

    Third representative of types of guns we have it in.Ed

    .

    .

    .

    AND We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
    can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate
    loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
    years pay. Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can
    shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 95 cents each,
    once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
    last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
    Folks can get 100 cases, dies, barrel to put in something, 750 bucks.

    Asked about #1, And perfect case for the Ruger #1.
    The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
    metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
    rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s
    extractors I've seen work better with belted than big rimmed.
    Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed


  2. #2
    Boolit Master DUKE NUKEM's Avatar
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    Looks fun Ed.

  3. #3
    Slug Master
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    Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
    It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
    Powder need not be like charcoal, IE, really slow powder, as necked
    needs. So it has effiencies of 37-39%, where necked cases are
    about 29%. Here is one done in a Savage..



    The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
    weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
    loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
    out after firing. Here are couple a nice singles with 585HE in them.





    Cases are made super strong, in the same factory run as the super
    high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
    belt as Cheytac/Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, just uses
    a different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
    and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
    These are not balloon head junk cases.



    We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
    Reamer specs all set and the chambers made with them, the cases
    extract at the highest pressures.
    Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP.Ed


  4. #4
    Slug Master
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    WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
    over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
    sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

    First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is
    4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
    and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
    We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
    them and put their own stamp on..

    Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
    holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
    shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

    Third is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others
    behind. Maybe make a great long range target cartridge.
    Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.







    Here is picture of 585HE with 700gr HP CEB bullet and 750 gr
    wide meplat CEB bullet..Ed


  5. #5
    Slug Master
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    In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
    cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
    long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

    We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
    showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
    a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
    same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
    years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
    done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
    corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
    process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.



    Now these cases have a diameter that works with regular bolt guns,
    without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
    Here is picture of a case held in a Ruger bolt, for example..



    And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
    oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
    harder to harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper strength.
    because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
    and heading operations in the manufacturing process.
    Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
    Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
    no extraction problems.



    Here is picture of a O/U I had top barrel sleeved with smooth tube, and use
    the 585HE in it with lightweight, hollowbase Minie bullets. Shoots about as
    accurate as foster slugs in a 12ga. Bottom barrel is 3.5" 12ga smooth.


  6. #6
    Boolit Master thehouseproduct's Avatar
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    Ed, have you ever thought about getting a web page or blog to post on? That way you wouldn't to post the same information and pictures over and over again on the dozens of forums you seem to frequent.
    Visit my page at www.echoarms.com for casting, reloading, and firearms accessories as well as FFL services in Southern California.

    Like my Facebook page: Echo Arms

  7. #7
    Slug Master
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    I have a site and we are planning on changing it to
    the use of promoting the cartridge a little, Which I'm
    doing at a loss, with costs more than returns.
    It will take time.One thing about all the forums it has
    got the word out a little.Ed

  8. #8
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    Very impressive. The brass is impressive. The performance is impressive. Very interesting.

  9. #9
    Slug Master
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    Some more info- For guys in other countries you can get cases
    from Bertram in Australia. I can send die sets. There is a guy
    in AUS that has a reamer I sent him.

    We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
    Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
    Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
    that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.



    WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
    Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
    Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.



    We even got one in good ole NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
    into it and gun weighted, with thick pad. Guy in TX got one also
    and there is video on ytube--Ed





    www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

  10. #10
    Slug Master
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    We have a guy who is working toward getting the 585HE cases into
    Canada, for guys there to be able to get them from him..

    Our case works for black powder type of loads using .585" Minie
    Bullets also. Here is picture sectioned case with 4 Pyrodex 54 cal
    pellets stacked behind a 440 gr Minie Bullet.Goes over 2500.
    Can be loaded with 3 pellets and 24ga cushion wad.



    Here is an innovation in a 585HE Falling Block we did. It's in a
    one piece thumbhole rifle stock. Nice to handle and shoots heavy
    loads a comfortable as a weighted bolt action gun. FBW brand.



    Here is a bunch of barrels we have, the wrapped ones are slow
    twist just for guys doing 585HE guns to use Minie bullets for
    deer, hogs, target, and plain ole fun Using black or smokeless.



    Here is picture of one being done by a guy on a big Enfield with a
    nice figured Walnut stock. It is weighted and has a thick pad.
    Being done African style with thick barrel and integral front sight.
    You can see a bunch cases in background shelf.--Ed


  11. #11
    Wha....???

    Cool! What does the 'HE' stand for? High Explosive?!? It looks like an artillery shell! I wish I weren't such a wimp because then I would have one of those in a nice Ruger No. 1...

  12. #12
    Slug Master
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    HE- Hubel Express-- Yes it is perfect for Ruger #1. And a
    heavy barrel, weight in the butt, shoots nice.

    Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
    will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
    that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
    1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
    Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon.

    Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock.





    Here is picture of 585 FBW falling block with a Knoxx Comstock.
    Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed


  13. #13
    Slug Master
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    Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
    We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
    Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
    of the cases and die sets.



    Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
    reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
    the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
    1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
    to .980 inch at the muzzle.



    Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
    Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
    built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
    without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
    to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
    Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
    bigger cases...Ed


  14. #14
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    Good to see a new post in this thread. The Enfield and Ruger sure do look similar.

  15. #15
    Slug Master
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    Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
    The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
    The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is gone.



    We also had guy show us how the case can work for a
    high energy subsonic cartridge. High energy for subsonic
    1600 gr at 1050 fps. The 585HE Whisper
    Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
    cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
    using our case to fire subsonic And fire 650gr or 750 gr at
    high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases use ours in
    same gun with inserts.




    Break action I like we did on a CBC by mono-blocking in a 585
    barrel set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.



  16. #16
    Slug Master
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    You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
    of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
    We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
    insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
    can load from the top.



    Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
    Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
    they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted easy.



    Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
    There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
    all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
    called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
    For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.

    There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
    fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.

    We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.

    Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.

    ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi

    Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
    peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.

    Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
    a real moderate load in this case.

    APB = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi

    The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
    a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed

  17. #17
    Slug Master
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    Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
    to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
    to 1200gr, to 1600gr.



    Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
    the powder settled, looks like.



    We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
    basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
    And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made
    now to go with new ones we got left. One went on this BBK
    pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one a Ruger.
    Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed


  18. #18
    Have you built any on large ring mausers?

  19. #19
    Slug Master
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    Yes built a singleshot on a 98, got it in composite stock.
    Take a bunch of work to put in long singlestack magazine.

    Built others that are that are Mauser clones,
    on the front half, the BBK and PH shown above.

    The BBK and PH, front ring like a 98, and back of the bolt
    and shroud like Winchester with wing safety.Ed

  20. #20
    Slug Master
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    There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
    And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
    barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
    hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
    Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..



    Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE.
    Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
    and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
    Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use
    577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed as 585HE.
    58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed



    PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
    of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions
    set up to use them in. .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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GC Gas Check