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Thread: Has anybody made a diesel gun?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    It may not be necessary for the fuel to ignite in order to raise velocity.
    When gases or vaporized liquids are heated they expand rapidly whether or not they ignite. Expansion of gases is what drives a bullet.

    An easy example is the increased velocity from a CO2 gun on very hot days.

  2. #22
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    If you have ignition and propellant gases are created, doesn't that make it a 'firearm' and no longer an Air Gun??? Hence, subject to NFA and all subsequent firearms laws???

  3. #23
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    OK guys,,,, The German Company Weihrauch who makes a lot of the good Spring Piston air guns once produced a version of the HW35 in .22 cal. know as the Barakuda.

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/...l54-ether.html

    It was a normal HW35 in .22 cal. with an attachment that dispensed a drop of ether behind the pellet just before you fired the gun.

    It produced .22 LR velocities from a gun that normally had 580 fps velocities in .22 cal.

    So the short answer to the OP's question is . It was done in the late 60's early 70's.

    They used Ether as the propellant due to its low flash point. IE the compression of the piston in the gun easily ignited the ether.

    On a side note: There are Diesel Model Airplane Engines that have been around from the beginning. In fact most European Model Airplane Engines are Diesels.

    They run on a fuel made of 33% kerosene, 33% Ether, and 33% Castor oil.+ some traces of some additives I have forgotten.

    These engines are compression ignition engines and the combustion chamber is adjustable to cope with ignition timing and actual compression. They end up running in the 9:1 Comp ratio regime due to the inclusion of Ether in the fuel which lowers the flash point of the fuel mixture.

    These engines are about 1.5 times the horsepower of a similar displacement Alcohol/Nitro fueled Glow Ignition style engine common here in the US. This mainly due to the higher density of the Kerosene. The ether is in there to start the fire easier.

    This is also the reason why diesel engines produce more power than gas motors. Normal gasoline is around 10,000 BTU's per pound. Diesel fuel is 18,000 BTU/LB. Kerosene is even higher and that's why they use it as Jet fuel.

    It is easy to see this if you look at the structure of the individual molecules of fuel. Natural Gas is CH4 "Methane" that is one carbon atom with 4 hydrogen atoms surrounding it. Gasoline is 6,7,or8 carbons lined up IE: Sextane, Septane /Heptane, Octane, with 14, 16 or 18 H's around. Diesel is 12,13,14 carbons and 26,28,30 H's and kerosene is 20-40 C's in a row, with 42- 82 H's !

    It is easier to see how these denser fuels have more poop. This is why 75% of the cars in Europe are diesel powered. VW Jetta wagons have a 2.0 L engine that produces 140HP and gets 42+ mpg. A new 2.8L BMW engine in the 3 series cars is 280HP and yields 45 mpg. Looking at one of those later today or tomorrow.

    This is why I own diesel powered vehicles.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 10-12-2013 at 03:19 PM.
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  4. #24
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    Randy, thank you so much for a very helpful and informative post. It's obvious you know a lot about diesel technology and application. This seems like an area that might be worth exploring. When primers and powder are in short supply, having a weapon that works on kerosene/diesel fuel would seem like a reasonable back up/last resort.

    How handy would a .25/20 equivalent that runs on K1 be?

  5. #25
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    The gun would not meet the emission requirements in Kalifornia, and then you have the lead pellet, think of the children!

  6. #26
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    Why do the theory threads get more posts than ones with real "meat' ?
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries

  7. #27
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    IIRC someone did some experiments with dieseling air rifles and had a write up in a gun magazine. He was trying different fuels I think. He was using standard lead pellets and had problems with blowing a hole through the pellet. He solved that by putting a drop of glue in the hollow of the pellet and letting it dry. I don't remember the name of the magazine and could have been 30 or 40 years ago.


    JUst Google Diesel Air Rifles and you will have plenty of reading.
    Last edited by Blacksmith; 10-12-2013 at 07:50 PM.
    Blacksmith

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  8. #28
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    Because there is more to talk about in theory.

    Perffessor: a gun that worked this way could be made, but the starting point probably wouldn't be an existing gun. It could be a beefed up version of an existing gun, or something that worked like one.

    When you start talking about a large caliber gun like in 38-45 cal. or even something that would shoot .25-.30 caliber boolits then propelling the boolit with a diesel explosion could be a viable way of powering it.

    The problem would be how to ignite the fuel. A spark probably isn't going to do it due to the high flash point and low volatility of the fuel, and igniting it with compression would require some type of spring mechanism like a spring piston gun has. However this mechanism would have to be built specifically to handle the increased pressures(10-20,000 psi?) involved when the mixture goes off. This rules out using any existing gun, so you would have to start from scratch.

    A propane powered "potato gun" that would fire with a spark might be a better way to go about it.

    Imagine an M203 40MM grenade launcher with a sealed breach and a spark igniter in the center of the breach face. A projectile looking like a Large(40MM) Pellet is loaded into the barrel. There would be a 2 stage trigger that would release some propane into the area behind the pellet and then the final stage of the trigger pull would fire the gun. Or you could have a separate trigger that would release as much propane as you wanted by how long you depressed the valve, for close range or long range targets.

    Load development would consist of figuring out how long to hold the gas valve open before you fired it.

    I have had this one on the internal drawing board for along time, and since it is big bore,,, it would be more fun!

    Looks kind of like this.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HARRYMPOPE View Post
    Why do the theory threads get more posts than ones with real "meat' ?
    Where do you think product development comes from? Some one says, "Shazam! here it is"?
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by roysha View Post
    One of the reasons the VL went nowhere was that Daisy was not a licensed firearms manufacturer and the gestapo (BATF) shut them down after about 18,000 rifles were made.

    Just a word about dieseling, or worse, detonation, when using a conventional springer; this practice can destroy seals in very little time. The reason the seal in the the VL (for the designer Von Langenhoven [sic]) was not damaged was because of a valving system that shut off the gasses to the seals. It is really quite ingenious and I am a bit surprised someone has not resurrected it in one form or another, especially as some type of repeater since there is no need for extractor or ejector. The propellent pellet is quite sturdy, at least my experiments indicate such, so the rounds would survive the feeding function
    The springer seal will just have to be made from a material that will tolerate such use. First one that comes to mind is Teflon, but it creeps...so the seal design must be specialized. Second, you need a consistent burn. Consistent light off and measurable qty come to mind to solve that one. Perhaps pack the back of the pellet with graphite powder?

    Now when I hear a knock at the door, and the announcement, 'Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' I want to see a salesman( or perhaps a team of them ).
    cheers,
    Douglas
    1990 D250, NV5600, Luk 05-101, 16cm housing, TST Kit KDP tab, 366 spring, Powr-Lok'd 3.07, HX35...IC soon
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Now when I hear a knock at the door, and the announcement, 'Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' I want to see a salesman( or perhaps a team of them ).
    Or better yet the neighborhood welcoming committee making sure you have all you need to enjoy your new home and participate in community events.

    As for the piston.
    I have a odd small piston I found long ago that may be a salesmans sample. It has a hole in the center of the top, I haven't figured out why. It has the grooves for the rings. It may not be for an engine, but rather for some sort of pump.
    Also there are large diameter model airplane engine cylinders that could be adapted to an airgun.

    The Crosman M1 Carbine sping piston gun used a valve that forced a probe forwards as pressure built up, the probe striping the bb from the feed trough. The air didn't come through till the pressure built past a certain level to open the valve against spring pressure. That would be a good addition to a diesel gun.
    Some method of metering the amount of expanding hot gas would make shots most consistent, with excess gas bled off as from a short stroke gas piston on a autoloader.

  12. #32
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    Tippman makes a propane powered paintball gun that I think should be able to be modified or copied to propel pellets.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master

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    I have had a few thoughts on this. First would be to use OX instead of air, faster cleaner burn. A spring/piston gun would need a check valve or it would push the piston back from the rise in pressure. A very small piston pump to act as an injector pump, think old steam water pump only a lot smaller. This small injector pump would run off the same pressure going to the barrel so the fuel would be injected at the same time as the pressure is rising behind the pellet/bullet. This system would also require a separate total discharge chamber with a valve between the main storage chamber. I have an old Crossman pump 22 pistol that uses this type of air chamber, just does not have a separate storage chamber. My problem is in the injector, I don't have drills small enough to make a hole small enough to atomize the fuel.
    For propane to work there would need to be an air space, propane will not burn without the proper amount of air.

  14. #34
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    Has anyone used the nail guns that use some sort of fuel-air mixture and battery ignition? They sure do drive nails and I would think a bullet if modified to do so. lreed

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master jmorris's Avatar
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    DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME OR ANYWHERE ELSE!!! but I have fired solid range golf balls over a 1/4 mile with Oxy/Act...

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master

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    This was the Daisy VL rifle back in the late 70's. The hot air set off the caseless charge.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    The Russians once used an airgun that ran off an engine of some sort.
    I forget most of the details but it fired large diameter steel balls through a curved tube to injure or kill any infantry who tried to climb onto a tank to set anti-tank charges or do other mischief.
    They got the curved barrel idea from the Germans, who had used a curved attachment for the STG44 in the same manner.

  18. #38
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    Potato guns use hairspray and a BBQ igniter. I have used Oxy/Acet to fire potato guns as well. To get the mixture you light the torch and adjust the flame until it is right then snuff the flame and stick the torch tip into a small hole in the gun barrel then touch it off with the re-lit torch.

    You get more distance by how long you leave the torch in the bbl before you touch it off.

    However these are all firearms.

    The reason why the Germans had such good Air Guns is because they weren't allowed to manufacture Firearms after both wars. Air Guns still kept them in the gun business.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by roysha View Post
    One of the reasons the VL went nowhere was that Daisy was not a licensed firearms manufacturer and the gestapo (BATF) shut them down after about 18,000 rifles were made. I have one and a couple boxes of ammo. Needless to say, when the ammo is gone I will have a wall hanger.

    Just a word about dieseling, or worse, detonation, when using a conventional springer; this practice can destroy seals in very little time. The reason the seal in the the VL (for the designer Von Langenhoven [sic]) was not damaged was because of a valving system that shut off the gasses to the seals. It is really quite ingenious and I am a bit surprised someone has not resurrected it in one form or another, especially as some type of repeater since there is no need for extractor or ejector. The propellent pellet is quite sturdy, at least my experiments indicate such, so the rounds would survive the feeding function
    Actually that has been tried. Anybody recall the Metal Storm weapons from a few years ago?

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by xs11jack View Post
    The more volatile the fuel, the easier it is to ignite. Oil would not be the best candidate. That is why hair spray is used in potato cannons. What about alcohol? Say 91 %?
    Ole Jack
    91% alcohol in a gun???!!?? That out to be in a glass!!!!!!!!!!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check