The "Inscrutable" Cast Softpoint EXPANSION TEST

[ktw]

BruceB, thanks for the explanation.

-ktw

[BruceB]

The Box didn't make it.

I started with the .30'06 once again, firing water-dropped 311284 softpoints at 1800 fps. The first round was fine. On the second shot, the near left corner of The Box blew out about an inch or so, and my carefully-cooked rice began running out onto the ground. I quickly whipped one more round into the rifle and fired it before the slurry level got too low.

The next go-round will see the use of that heavy corner-beading steel molding on all the corners, and BOLTED -not screwed- in place. I'm going to get this working!

The rice slurry REALLY tears up the bullets. From a nominal starting weight of 215 grains in my WW alloy, the recovered weights of the three bullets are 127.8 grains, 155.2 grains, and 99.8 grains. All three 284s lost their gaschecks.

The #1 bullet measures .460" (widest) and .435" (narrowest) after expansion

#2: .558" x .490"

#3: .502" x .482"

I did find a few fragments mixed into the rice, but there's no way to tell which bullet they came from. The recovered bullets don't have any part of the softpoints remaining, being much shorter than the original base-to-softpoint measurement. I wouldn't be surprised, though, to find that the shank material just continued the upsetting begun by the softpoints. I wish I'd thought ahead and been prepared to quickly fire one of the Partitions while the slurry was draining from the Box.

I only got a decent "read" on penetration with one bullet, which I found about 24" into the box. The slurry on this trip was a bit too thick, and next time I'll make sure there's more water in the mix...I could still see the track of the last bullet in the rice when I took the lid off. I ended up using just 80 pounds of rice, because it was bulking-up much better than the last time due to the cooking. The 30-gallon trashcan holds enough to fill the box nicely with a bit left over. My weedburner actually had the batch boiling, after quite a while.

Hey, if everything always went right, I'd have nothing to do! Not discouraged here, although I hear there's a rumor of rice shortages in Asia.

[armoredman]

Hey, China takes all the lead and copper, only fair we take the rice...thanks for your hard work, sir!

[NSP64]

Bruce, This is more exciting than Christmas!!! The Wright brothers didn't get it on the first or second try either keep up the good work. I am going to water drop some tonight to use in my homemade 44mag singleshot pistol. I didn't get a good shot at a deer this past weekend using some 44 duplex pure/ww boolits in my 50cal ML. I will post results if I can connect with bambi

[Bass Ackward]

The Box didn't make it.

Just wait until you hit it with one of those heavy hitters.

[waksupi]

Bruce, maybe you need one of those aquarium pumps, to keep the air circulating through the rice.
I'm with ya buddy, I'm with ya!

[AnthonyB]

BruceB posted:
The recovered bullets don't have any part of the softpoints remaining, being much shorter than the original base-to-softpoint measurement.

I'm gonna walk out on the limb and say that the soft points will work like cast hollowpoints using WW alloy - the nose will expand rapidly, then shear off radially as the the base continues to penetrate. That's what I'm counting on for my 308 Winchester deer load this year...
Tony

[NVcurmudgeon]

Even with all the hassle, those three boolits gave some hopeful results. Here's hoping that Mark III is the charm.

[Mk42gunner]

Bruce,

Sorry to read that Box, Mk 2 didn't work. I have a few ideas that may help on the next one.

When you bolt the reinforcing steel corners on the box; either use fender washers inside to help spread the load, or sandwich the plywood between two layers of steel.

Since it sounds like the box swelled at the corners and pulled the screw heads thru the plywood; what about backing the plywood at the corners wit a 2x6 to help resist bowing out?

On to what I think is ultimately going to happen with the bullet testing box. I know this is cost prohibitive for a one time, (or one person) use item. Steel either 3/16" or better yet 1/4" thick welded full length with 1 1/2 or 2" angle iron inside and stiffeners across the top every foot. I also think it should be at least six feet long; as there will always be the inclination to test ever more powerful loads in it, (factory 416 Rigby anyone?). Also, I would weld studs to the front to be able to install additional gasket/target holders without losing too much of the slurry, in case the first one splits during use.

If I remember correctly 1/4" steel weighs 25 lbs per square foot so my design would weigh 475 lbs before the stiffeners and cross bracing are added in. Might as well add some eyes for slings to lift it or strap it to a pallet.

Would a piece of conveyer belting be too tough for the front of the box? The reason I ask is the Dept of Conservation range at Clinton, MO uses it for target holders.

I thought of this because I happen to have several pieces of 3/16"x12"x10' steel and an old Lincoln pipeline welder. Unfortunately I need to rebuild the carburetor on it.

Maybe one day the planets will line up and I will get a box welded together,

Robert

p.s. I really need to get a new keyboard, three quarters of the typos I found were because the keys don't like to work .

[montana_charlie]

If you bring a pot of water to a boil, dump in a quantity of rice, and kill the fire, the rice will partially cook..absorbing a small amount of the water.
If you put the rice in cold water, bring it all to a boil, and shut off the fire, the rice will (pretty much) cook completely...absorbing all the water it can.
If the rice/water ratio is 1:2, you will have a consistency suitable for serving.

That consistency will probably leave 'wound channels' in the medium.

In addition to your 'Box strength' problem, you probably cooked your rice more than you wanted.

At the risk of being repetitive, I will again mention steel culvert as a container. It's only about a sixteenth thick, but it's engineered for strength.
Alternatively, a 55 gallon drum might be useful...
CM

[leftiye]

Looks like if the water - hydrostatic shock- and rice is simply placed in a container that the energy transmitted to the container is going to be astronomical! You're gonna need a muy fuerte box to handle your .416 loads (like B.A. said). Something that can flex with the shock- like a bladder inside a ballistic nylon case might be the ticket.

Also, unless you don't mind losing all of that boolit weight, you might have to go to a tougher (toughest) alloy for the noses. Like 5 to 10% tin, maybe some copper and/or even some silver. No way pure lead is gonna take 2000fps.

[Pepe Ray]

Do you remember the old saw about the "willow vs. the oak"?
Your testing to establish values that wll be important in using our boolets on game with plywood and steel skin?
Methinks there was a wrong turn somewhere.

Pepe Ray

[BruceB]

Pepe Ray;

You must have missed the part where I described the set-up. The bullets enter the box through a 1/4"-thick gum-rubber sheet which covers the 6"-diameter cut-out in the box end.

[Thumbcocker]

I recall an article by Ross Seifried IIRCC about soft nose boolits in ginormous handguns. Some had the soft nose turn into a lead washer with the core pushing on through. Looked like a lot of energy transfer.

You scinetific mindset and persistance are an inspiration to us all.

[Pepe Ray]

Sorry Bruce, but I've been here since post #1. If you calculate your surface area you'll see your end(s) are a very small % of the total. Like having too small a vent in your pressure cooker. Just MHO.
Pepe Ray

[Bass Ackward]

Not to discourage anyone here, but as casters we tend to want to see things for ourselves. We forget that Lyman did extensive testing for everything from accuracy to expansion and penetration tests before they decided on their Lyman #2 mix at 15 BHN.

Here is my 14 BHN, 4% antomony, 2% tin mix bullet before and after abused by traveling through 19" of Eastern Birdseye Maple which is a fairly hard wood at roughly 2100 fps strike. This bullet weighed 250 grains at the start and ended at 135.5 grains and it was in the bark of an oak behind this tree. This isn't much to show a pretty mushroom in something as light as a deer, which it does bloom out a little bigger, but does give me an idea of how it will hang together. Bear in mind, no jacketed bullet to include a Barnes X has ever penetrated this maple.





Note the danged Gator check came off. Need some product development there I think.

[NSP64]

BA, were you aiming at a deer or the tree?

[Bass Ackward]

BA, were you aiming at a deer or the tree?

NSP,

Sorrry. Most folks know that I use water jugs and wet news print to simulate expansion on game. We use these maple trees to test penetration.

[scrapcan]

Bruce,

Could you use a plastic drum to contain your mixture? You can make up a pretty quick drum cradle out of wood. It would make it difficult to find the boolit if it sank, but it should be able to contain some of the shock if you make it so some dissipation can occur upward. But The boolits may also go the full length of one plastic drum (most are actually HDPE) so you might have to use a couple.

If you have a dialysis center close they may give you a drum that had saline in it. Might be worth a try. Make sure it has some vent or it will be like the water jugs.

Good work Bruce. Did you salvage some of the rice? I have heard that wheat will also cook up like rice, you may be able to go to a feed store and get wheat a little cheaper.

[waksupi]

Just a thought, Bruce. How about a V shaped trough? I believe with the square type construction you are using, you are going to find it hard to contain the physics of the incompressability of liquids. With a V configuration, and a flexible covering on top, you may be able to contain more hydralic force, by directing it upwards, rather than to sides and bottom.