Newbie to 30 M1 Carbine

[CGT80]

I have been reading this site and searching the net, but I still have a few questions. I am getting setup to reload for a Quality H.M.C. U.S. Carbine cal 30 M1 with a serial of 4,638,xxx. I have been reloading for 20 years, and I now know enough to ask questions and learn from other people's experiences. Yep, at 32 years old I don't know it all


I have loaded 9,40,45, 38 spl, 44 mag, 45 colt, 460 mag, 223, 30-30, 30-06, and 243 so far. I have used roll and taper crimps and I have learned what the wrong crimp will do. I have cast boolits for other guns as well.

This project will use boolits from WW mixed with what I think is Linotype. The mold is an RCBS 30-115-SP mold. The boolits drop at .310-.311. I have .308 and .311 dies for my RCBS LAM I. The .311 die gives me a bullet that is roughly .310. I may have to beagle my mold if I want .311. Lube is White Label C Red and I am using Hornady copper gas checks and will later use some aluminum checks.

Dies are RCBS carb. size, Lee expansion die for 30 M1, and RCBS seat die.

I will start out using my Hollywood Universal Turret cast iron press, until I get the conversions for my Dillon 550. I have a lyman electric case trimmer to use until I get a CTS trimmer for 30 M1.

Brass is mixed. I have small rifle, small rifle mag, and cci 41 primers. I may start with 11.0 grains of 2400. I have not used 2400 before.

I have shot this rifle with some ammo my grandfather loaded. It was FMJ. I noticed some damage to the magazines. One is not usable now, and the other shows some wear. The damage is at the notches that hold the mag into the rifle. Could I have had the springs in the mag backward, and will this cause that wear, or is it due to some other problem? It looks like the rifle has the early mag catch/release.




Is this the correct orientation for the follower spring and baseplate?





This is a .310 sized boolit (run through .311 die) seated to 1.590"
I am not sure of the length to seat to. The crimp is just enough to take the flare out of the edge of the case. At this length, the bullet doesn't seem to show marks from the rifling/chamber. I have to let the bolt slam home so that it can grab the case head. I suppose I could try pushing the dummy round in the chamber by hand to see if it clears. I loaded cast boolits for my 30-30 winchester lever action and my winchester 54 30-06 bolt gun, but not a semi auto.

I first tried setting my sizing die to almost cam over the press. The die touched the shell holder. The brass sized fine, but the mouth was too small to slide over the 30 caliber arbor for my lyman case trimmer. If I just partially size the case, the mouth will fit. This seems odd. I am shooting for a case length of 1.286"

Any advice would be helpful. I am most concerned about damaging the mags, as I only have one that works. I wonder if I could tig or mig weld a dot onto the damaged mag and grind or file a notch for the mag catch to hang onto. I need to find more mags.

I did notice that this cast boolit was marked when I seated it to 1.680. It looked like the beginning of the rifling/bore pushed some lead back toward the case. It looks like this boolit has a crimp groove, but it seems pointless for a round that headspaces on the case mouth. It might be good for the 30-30 or 30-06 though.

Thanks for checking out my project.

[Artful]

I've never seen damage to magazine like that - are you pushing the button in all the way?

[CGT80]

I've never seen damage to magazine like that - are you pushing the button in all the way?

Yes, when ejecting the mag. I just slam the loaded mag in the gun, and suspect that it may be happening when loading the mag. The magazine has to push the catch to the side as it goes in the gun, then the catch moves back to hold the mag. The mag catch moves OK. It is not real easy to move, but not hard either. I will try some CLP on it.

[Larry Gibson]

You are on the right track as to casting, sizing and loading. I would not add the lino to the WWs though. Both are too antimony rich. Instead add 2% tin to the WWs and it will work fine. The .310 size bullets are also fine. 2400 works well but consider H110 down the road. I load .30 Carbine on my 550B so give a shout when you are ready to set yours up.

Carbine mags are not hardened and get worn like yours if abused. Sometimes they can be fixed, most often not worth the trouble trying. You have the mag parts positioned correctly.

Larry Gibson

[CGT80]

You are on the right track as to casting, sizing and loading. I would not add the lino to the WWs though. Both are too antimony rich. Instead add 2% tin to the WWs and it will work fine. The .310 size bullets are also fine. 2400 works well but consider H110 down the road. I load .30 Carbine on my 550B so give a shout when you are ready to set yours up.

Carbine mags are not hardened and get worn like yours if abused. Sometimes they can be fixed, most often not worth the trouble trying. You have the mag parts positioned correctly.

Larry Gibson

Thanks for the reply Larry.

I also have some pure lead to use up, and I do have some tin wire from rotometals to sweeten the pot. I have 2400 from my grandfather. There is only a pound or two. I would consider H110 since I use W296 for the hot loads in my 460 mag. I have a casefeeder on my 550 and I run 223 and 30-06 in the casefeeder with a cam plate that I made to push the brass in the press before the ram gets to the top of it's stroke.

I made a list of parts for the 550, but I may wait until I have more money to order them.

What is considered abuse to a mag? Both mags worked the first time I used the rifle, and on the second use, one was very damaged and the other part way there. I ran less than 150 rounds through this rifle.

Chris

[Larry Gibson]

Damage to the locking t*ts is usually caused from a worn or poorly fitted mag catch and subsequent beating the mag to get it to latch into place. Also from holding the mag instead of forearm or resting mag on the ground/bench when shooting. One other cause is from shooting FA with the mag held in by a M1 mag catch instead of the M2 mag catch.

Larry Gibson

[rondog]

Personally, I never slap or beat magazines home, I just click them into place and then give an extra push to make sure they're seated. Abusing things needlessly has never served me well.

[CGT80]

I now have 10 rounds each of 5 different powder charges for my 30 M1 carbine. My rcbs 30-115-SP GC boolit came out at 125 grains with a hornady gas check and Cred lube. The powder is 11.0-11.8 grains of 2400.

I turned my trimmer pilot on a lathe so that my sized 30 carbine brass will slip over it. It took around 5 thousandths to make it fit.

I lubed the mag catch on my rifle and played with the magazine a bit. It takes a fair amount of force to push the mag into place, but the catch moves freely. I wonder if the spring may have been replaced with a stronger one at some point. I don't see how the mags could hold up to the amount of force needed. I will press and hold the mag release while I insert the mag, until I can get that issue sorted out.

I put some small beads of weld on the unusable mag, and I just need to finish shaping them. I think they will function as well as the nipple that was bent out on the original mags, but may hold up better since they will be solid vs. bent sheet metal.

With any luck, I will get out to the range by the end of the weekend to test these loads. Loading these in single stage mode on my Hollywood Universal Turret brought back memories from loading all my ammo, on this machine, as a teen. It really made me appreciate my dillon 550 and 1050 machines.

[cwheel]

I just finished a short run on my 550. ( 2000) Sounds like you are going down the right road so far. Mine, all trimmed mixed cases, but mostly LC mil. cases. I settled on 12 gr. of a very old lot of 2400. My gas checked Lyman 311359 came out weighing around 125gr. All taper crimped in the last station of the Dillon. CCI small rifle primers. OAL of finished round = 1.625.

***BIG NOTE OF CAUTION.*** I have had 4 slam fires with this round in 2 different Winchester carbines. These slam fires happened when loading the rifle directly into the barrel and letting the bolt fly home. Best I can tell after a full disassembly of both bolts is that I have a over sensitive lot of CCI small rifle primers on hand. ( still have about 5000 of these ) Best prevention is to only load from a mag inserted into the rifle, feed from the mag only. When I load these again, will use a different primer in the next run. Be careful here. A simple test you can perform is to get to a safe area with some of your fresh reloads, point the rifle in a safe direction, insert loaded round in the barrel without a mag and let the bolt fly closes. If it doesn't fire ( hope it doesn't ) extract the loaded round and notice the firing pin mark on the primer of the unfired round. That should be all you need to see. I'd load these with the hardest primers I can find next time, I'd advise you to start out with a very hard primer.
Chris

[rondog]

I just finished a short run on my 550. ( 2000) Sounds like you are going down the right road so far. Mine, all trimmed mixed cases, but mostly LC mil. cases. I settled on 12 gr. of a very old lot of 2400. My gas checked Lyman 311359 came out weighing around 125gr. All taper crimped in the last station of the Dillon. CCI small rifle primers. OAL of finished round = 1.625.

***BIG NOTE OF CAUTION.*** I have had 4 slam fires with this round in 2 different Winchester carbines. These slam fires happened when loading the rifle directly into the barrel and letting the bolt fly home. Best I can tell after a full disassembly of both bolts is that I have a over sensitive lot of CCI small rifle primers on hand. ( still have about 5000 of these ) Best prevention is to only load from a mag inserted into the rifle, feed from the mag only. When I load these again, will use a different primer in the next run. Be careful here. A simple test you can perform is to get to a safe area with some of your fresh reloads, point the rifle in a safe direction, insert loaded round in the barrel without a mag and let the bolt fly closes. If it doesn't fire ( hope it doesn't ) extract the loaded round and notice the firing pin mark on the primer of the unfired round. That should be all you need to see. I'd load these with the hardest primers I can find next time, I'd advise you to start out with a very hard primer.
Chris

Man, I can't think of any autoloaders that aren't intended to be charged by stripping a round off the magazine first. I don't know of any that are really meant to be loaded by dropping a round in the chamber and then letting the bolt slam home.

[CGT80]

I used some old Winchester Western primers that my grandfather bought years ago. I will do the above mentioned test. I shot some ammo my grandfather loaded up and didn't have problems, but they were all loaded from the mag. I think my finished rounds are at 1.590". If I load longer, the edge of the boolit will be shaved.

The primers I have are a mix of cci 41, wolf 223, winchester, and federal 200, all in small rifle. I suppose I could run the cci 41's if needed. I bought them for my AR 15 and Mini 14 Target Model, as I use h335 right now. After I burn up this 8 pound jug of 335 I may switch to 4895 since I have two big cans of it, or I may just order more 335. I read that it needs a magnum primer though, when used in 223. Adding another rifle to feed makes me look at my reloading supplies a bit different.

[cwheel]

Those slam fires sure got my attention. M1 carbine doesn't have a spring on the firing pin for return, the bolt coming to the abrupt stop in battery caused the firing pin inertia to discharge these. Lite firing pin mark on the fired cases, but still enough to discharge. Doesn't do it all the time. My fix for this one is just to fire these rounds and turn them into cases to reload again. I'll always load this lot from a mag with this one just to slow the bolt down enough not to happen. Going to order up the military grade primers for the next run if they become available.
Chris

[Chev. William]

Curious; I own and shoot a USGI Winchester built M1 Carbine that was reimported from Korea. It has Mil. Spec. / USGI parts throughout and I have installed a 'M2' type Magazine release and a turn safety with new plungers and spring before I started firing it in earnest. I have fired Mil. Surp., Commercial, and hand loads through both the magazine and via single feeding and allowing the bolt to 'slam closed' on a prechambered cartridge. I have NEVER experienced a 'Slam Fire' with this carbine.
I know that 'Slam Fires' are designed against by the USGI Mil. Spec. Receiver and Firing Pin, as these have been checked for compliance with specification dimensions and contours after purchase of the firearm. By design, the Firing Pin is blocked from moving to contact the primer until the bolt is all the way forward and is rotating into full locked position by the receiver bridge cam surface and the rear tang of the Firing Pin contours.
The reported 'Slam Fires' I have read about appear to be in Carbines that do not have receivers and firing pins that meet the full Military Specifications for them. usually a miss contoured receiver bridge and/or worn or miss formed firing pin tang. If the Firing pin is able to move forward to strike the primer before the bolt is locked (the Operating Slide has reached its forward limit of travel) you have non spec or overly worn parts. "Fulton Armory" is one place that offers to inspect and rebuild Carbines to full USGI Mil. Spec. conditions.

Get a copy of a Good book on the Carbine such as "The U.S. .30 Cal. Gas Operated Carbines, A Shop Manual Volume III" by Jerry Kunhausen as it contains photos and drawings with dimensions of the Carbine components.
Will I never experience a 'Slam Fire'? I doubt it as I have fired M16s in the past that showed a tendency to do so, and may get issued one in the future that will.

As to your Magazine excess wear of the retaining pips: Remember the magazine was designed as a disposable item during WW2, yes the design allows reloading and repeated use, but they are still not designed for long service life. I have not experienced the wear you have seen on yours, but then again my usage is probably different from your. Check the drawings and other information in the book recommended above for dimensions and designed assembly orientation of the Magazine parts.
I hope your weld idea works for you.
There are still Magazines available through a number of outlets, such as "Cheaper than Dirt" or "Ebay", provided you home locale allows them to be possessed or purchased. Sadly my home State has passed laws that denies me that right.
For new construction Magazines, the Pro-Mag ones are very good and slightly thicker and harder metal so may last longer in your Carbine.
This is MY Personal experiences and Opinions, yours probably will vary.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[CGT80]

Thank you for the advice. I may have to look into that book, or find a gunsmith who knows M1's. The magazine that I welded new pips onto is working well. It even seems to be holding up to just pushing the mag right in, without first pushing in on the mag release button. I was able to get some Korean mags that I can block to 10 rounds to be legal in my state. I tried inserting just a mag body into the rifle, and I saw wear marks after just a few insertions. The disposable aspect seems likely, otherwise the mags would likely have a better retention system. The first Korean mag body I used also fit very tight. The pips may be off just a tad, or my rifle is off a tad. I need to try some more of them. I am a bit afraid of damaging my new mags.

I disassembled the rifle and cleaned everything. The springs for the safety and mag release all look like photos I have found of originals. They have a bit of wear on the tips that ride against other metal, but I don't see that it would make them any stiffer. I did find a cut across the bolt handle that sits over the gas piston. It looks like it was made with a hacksaw from left to right of the rifle. The rifle runs fine, but I don't understand why that is cut. The steel looks shiny and raw. I haven't looked up info on the net regarding that yet.

My cast boolits are working well at 100 and 160 yards on 12" circular and square steel plates. The rifle seems to run well. It looks like it may be hard to keep this thing fed, especially if I get a few mags running properly rather than just the one I have now.

[zomby woof]

The magazine spring is in backwards.

With both 15 and 30 round magazines, re-assembly is often problematic. The springs are a \/\/\/\/
pattern of different lengths for the short or long magazines. When reassembling them after cleaning,
the terminal or long end of the \/\/\/\/ goes under the rear of the follower. This places the most lift at
the rear of the cartridge column to help it raise the top rim in front of the bolt. If reversed, the last few
rounds tend not to feed correctly with the bolt over-riding the top round.

[Chev. William]

[Quote] I did find a cut across the bolt handle that sits over the gas piston. It looks like it was made with a hacksaw from left to right of the rifle. The rifle runs fine, but I don't understand why that is cut. The steel looks shiny and raw. I haven't looked up info on the net regarding that yet. [unquote]

Please DO look at photos of the part similar to your 'cut' one, the quickest place to find th eparts with photos may be "Ebay" using a search for "M1 Carbine".

If you are thinking of the "Operating Slide" which has the 'handle' you pull to retract the bolt and has a portion that 'wraps' around the gas piston and gas cylinder block portion of the barrel assembly, it should not have cuts in it that were not put there by the original manufacturer and are not specified in the drawings for the part. Raw 'hacksaw' cuts would both weaken the part and provide 'stress risers' that can lead to future failure of the part in service.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

P.S.: yes the Carbine is a 'fun' shooter but remember to "Aim Close and hit what you aim at" as Audie Murphy found it Very Effective in WW2. Mr. Murphy liked the Carbine much better than the Thompson he was issued and traded the Thompson for a Carbine when he could. Chev. William

[3006guns]

Since this thread isn't long enough (what carbine thread is?) I need to stick my two bits worth in....

I've been using some Vhitavouri (sp) small rifle magnum primers with 2400 and a 10 grain load. It's fun for plinking and ejects gently from the carbine, landing at my feet. I increased the charge to 11 and 12 grains in order to bring the point of impact up a bit and immediately experienced pressure signs, i.e. flat and cratered primers. Evidently this particular brand of primer generates too much pressure beyond a certain point, so keep an eye on your empties as you do load development!

[Chev. William]

Another magazine 'hint': I find that all magazines, both USGI and Aftermarket, seem to have a sharp square cut edge to the feed lips and front magazine edges. This has occasionally 'snagged' the case or bullet and has caused a FTF condition. I found that by rounding the inside edge of both the feed lips and the front metal edges of the magazines to smooth the transition of the cartridge to the chamber works to prevent the FTF problem.

I have most of the variations of magazine capacity from 4 rounds up. The 4 round magazine is a modified one that was used in hunting and fits almost flush with bottom of the carbine, 5 round ones fit so they are just proud of the rear magazine guide.

California's new Law seems to make possession of any magazine that "appears to hold more than ten rounds" a new crime if it actually goes to enforcement. I understand there is at least one Lawsuit being prepared to try to block it's enforcement.

Too Sad, Too Sad. All the USGI magazines out there that instantly will make their owners/collectors Felons if it does get enforced.

A band-saw can be used to render them unserviceable if that is needed.

I have already converted some "15 round" magazines by using a band-saw and a TIG welder into single stack 10 round .45 Winchester Magnum magazines for a project Carbine conversion into a Rifle with a 24 inch barrel that is still 'in progress' at my gunsmith's shop.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[CGT80]

This thread delivers!!!

I will look for those photos before I take the rifle out again. My USGI mag is working great. I will have to check those problematic areas when I use the others. The biggest issue was just the wear on the pips.

10+ round bodies are not illegal here. There was a law proposed to restrict them, but that part of 48 does not apply because 374, the semi auto with removable mag bag did not go through. As long as we permanently alter a 10+ mag to only hold 10, we are good to go, for now. My Pmag 10/30's are still good to go. I will alter the korean 15 round parts kits that I recently got. That is why I have only put one of those bodies into my rifle and not an entire assembled mag. I also wondered about cutting the bodies to 10 round length. I planned to tig weld the bases on the mags once they were blocked. I am pretty good with metal fabrication so it would be a DIY project, and cheap. I also hadn't decided on what to use for a block, if I don't cut the bodies shorter.

Looks like I have some gun related homework to do now

[CGT80]

Here are a couple photos of my M1 Carbine. The cut in the slide is from the stock side, not the gas piston side. I don't see how anything other than a saw blade would cause this. I looked at ebay pics, and they are not cut like this. I did see pics of demilled guns, but they are cut all the way through to prevent use.

I could mig, tig, stick, or gas weld this cut, or find another slide to replace it.

Has anyone seen this before?