A Stevens Barrel/cartridge Problem.

[Chev. William]

I am posting a duplicate query here in hope of receiving answers to my problems.

On a 'Whim' I bid on and won an auction for a "Stevens Favorite barrel in 25-20".
I just this evening received the used Barrel in the USPS Mail and find that it has a chamber that does not match what is marked on the barrel.

First the barrel description:
It is a half round-half octagon design about 26 inches long with an 8 inch full octagon section. The Muzzle end measures .807 inch diameter with a square flat end.
The round section measures about .942 inch diameter just in front of the Octagon section.
The Octagon section measures about .972 inch across the flats.
The Breech end has two diameters with threads on the middle third.
The section near the octagon measures .800 inch diameter, the threaded area seems to be .790 inch outer diameter, and the breech end measures .740 inch diameter. The 'spigot overall length measures 1.553 inches, with the .740 inch section about .695 inch long.
Markings on the barrel are:
"J. Stevens A. & T. Co.", "Chicopee Falls, Mass.U.S.A. PAT. APR. 17 94" on the top flat.
"25-20" in 'roll stamp script' on the next flat.
and "61 674" just forward of the bottom flat.
No other markings were found.

The chamber measurements do not match what Ammoguide has for either "25-20' cartridge, nor does the Cartridge Identifier tool come up with a match.
Dimensions measures so far:
Chamber depth = 1.175 inch.
Chamber shoulder diameter = .279 inch.
Chamber base diameter = .279 inch.
Chamber rim cut diameter = .348 inch.
Chamber Rim cut depth = .053 inch.
Barrel slugs .250 Bore and .257 Groove diameters.
Note that one of my ".250ALS" loaded cartridges will go into the chamber as found. But the barrel is 'oversize for the bullet, a .250 Diameter 50 Grain FMJ RN design.

I am hoping someone with more experience with the older cartridges will be able to help me identify what this barrel is designed to fit (action) and fire (cartridge).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: The Bore cleaned up very smooth and shiny with good sharp rifling apparently all the way to the chamber cut. It did slug a little easier near the muzzle end 9last inch or so). Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

It appears you have a barrel for a Stevens No. 44. As to the dimensions of the chamber, I can't find any standard .25 chamber that has those dimensions. You ought to make a chamber cast.

[uscra112]

Your given chamber dimensions correspond nicely with the .25 Stevens (long) rimfire, but the groove diameter is too big. You sure have a funny one there !

That's surely a Model 44 barrel, and the 44 was made in large numbers chambered for .25-20 Stevens, later called .25-20 Single Shot by Winchester to distinguish it from their own .25-20 WCF. Stevens never marked their barrels with anything more than ".25-20". Groove diameter was typically .257, but you find them as small as .253, so it's said by people who should know. I have several, and none of mine are that small.

The straight walled .25-21 Stevens cartridge had a nominal base diameter of only .300", but that case was a little over 2" long, and your chamber is still way too small for it.

Is there any sign that your barrel has been set back? I'm wondering if somebody tried to make a .25 rimfire barrel out of a .25-20 Stevens centerfire, and discovered too late that the rimfire boolit was too small for the grooves.

[uscra112]

Should have mentioned that it might be a barrel for a Stevens 44 1/2 - they look a lot alike, but the shanks are slightly different. Can't remember the exactly dimensional differences now, my CRS is kicking up.

[Chev. William]

It appears you have a barrel for a Stevens No. 44. As to the dimensions of the chamber, I can't find any standard .25 chamber that has those dimensions. You ought to make a chamber cast.

Presently my Gunsmith is about 20 project behind and is trying to get ready for some Movie Work the end of October and beginning of November that is using up his time, my projects are 'back burner' to save me money so will be delayed for his paying work, both with Movies and with Gunsmithing.
I will probably get a chamber cast sometime around late November or December if I ask him then, I respect his need to make money when work is available so will nt press him for it now.

By the way, I just got two days work with a chance of a call back for this coming Wednesday so Life is Good for me at the moment, about 30 hours in two days at $36.60/hr plus overtime is very good for my finances.

Best Regards,
Chev. Williiam

[Chev. William]

Your given chamber dimensions correspond nicely with the .25 Stevens (long) rimfire, but the groove diameter is too big. You sure have a funny one there !

That's surely a Model 44 barrel, and the 44 was made in large numbers chambered for .25-20 Stevens, later called .25-20 Single Shot by Winchester to distinguish it from their own .25-20 WCF. Stevens never marked their barrels with anything more than ".25-20". Groove diameter was typically .257, but you find them as small as .253, so it's said by people who should know. I have several, and none of mine are that small.

The straight walled .25-21 Stevens cartridge had a nominal base diameter of only .300", but that case was a little over 2" long, and your chamber is still way too small for it.

Is there any sign that your barrel has been set back? I'm wondering if somebody tried to make a .25 rimfire barrel out of a .25-20 Stevens centerfire, and discovered too late that the rimfire boolit was too small for the grooves.

Uscra112,
A setback barrel is a possibility, the 'spigot' has no 'rust' on it but is not a fresh cut surface, more likely weeks or months old, at least.
The breech end is clean, no 'dings' from use, and has a partial 'burr' around the outside edge.
The chamber to rim rebate edge is not exactly sharp, possibly champfered edge?
The rim rebate cut has a almost perfect right angle corner to it so is possibly of recent cut.
The extractor notch is almost without use markings but has not been champfered along its edges.
The Distance from the 'dot' following the 'CO' of the roll marking to the "spigot" end of the Octagon is about .92" on this 8 inch long Octagon section.
There is a difference between markings on a 1894 series barrel and this one, there are two "m" marks on the 1894 series markings, one at each end of the manufacturer name and address marking, that do not show up on the barrel in question. These may be "embellishments" to 'bookend' the marks on the 1894 series barrel.
What is the normal Octagon Section length of a typical 44 or 44-1/2 barrel?
My Gunsmith has the four other used barrels I had purchased earlier so it is difficult to check for me. From your description at least one of the other barrels is probably also from a similar model action.
I do remember the partial octagon section of the 1894 series Favorite is shorter and not a full octagon, having just 5 sides, with the lower section round.

Another detail, the bottom flat, about 1-7/8 inch back from the transition from round to octagon has a dovetail cut in it. Does this help identify the model?

I did receive and reply to your PM.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

RE: The identification of my 'new' barrel.
I have received several suggestions of what action it is for and what cartridge it is chambered in.
The general consensus to date is that it may be a set back and chamber cut Stevens Model 44 Barrel.

It is confirmed that the barrel 'spigot' is a match for the Model 44 dimensions, so that is most probable Action intended intended to receive it.

The Chamber dimensions, it is believed match those of the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge however the Bore and Groove diameters are larger than is used for that round.
The .25 Stevens Long RF uses a bullet of .250 to .251 nominal diameter, inside lubed.
The Bore dimensions seem to be correct for the 25-20 Stevens, or as others called it , the 25-20 Single Shot, which did use a .257 nominal diameter bullet.

Perhaps someone else had the thought to use it as a Center fire conversion to a 'mildcat' of the .25 Stevens and then found to late that the bore dimensions were not right for their project?

Now there is what should be done with it?
Should it be the beginning of a project to develop a 'Heel base' bullet of .257 or so diameter to fit in a 1.124" or so case length and chamber in a 1.175' long chamber?
Should it be again cut to a new chamber for some other .257 diameter bullet using cartridge?
Should I 'unload it' to someone else?

It has a Very Good Condition bore after cleaning it, with smooth and shiny insides and sharp rifling the full length from Chamber to muzzle.
When I slugged it with a "Ranch Dog" design .25ACP bullet, from chamber to muzzle, driving it through with a 3/16 Hard Brass rod and mild hammer blows I found it even in tightness until about an inch from the muzzle end, where it felt slightly looser than the rest.

Inspecting the slug with a 20 power magnifier, the rifling cut sharp edged grooves in the driving bands almost to the bullet nose diameter and the drive bands, including the 'swell' of the nose before the first driving band, showed contact with the full diameter of the barrel grooves. It seems it would seal, and possibly shoot well even with this bullet size, if the bullet is not reduced in diameter in the loading process. An obvious problem with a cartridge that requires some tension on the bullet to retain it in the case.

Pondering on this, I surmise that a heel based and heel lubed bullet design similar to the Accurate Molds 31-090A, but of around .258" maximum diameter and with a .250" diameter heel would work. The heel length should be about the same as the seated depth of a .25ACP bullet and the driving band should be about .050" long to fit the bullet in a 1.125" long ".25 Stevens CF" case and still chamber in the 1.175" cut chamber as found, unless the case used is trimmed to a shorter length.
Note: Accurate molds does not make molds below .300 bullet diameter at this time according to their web site.
The nose could be a 'bore rider design and extend into the rifling as it slugged at .250".
A bullet weight of about 67 to 75 grains would be interesting for this barrel, especially since it seems it is for the stronger Model 44 action rather than the 'Favorite' action. The stronger action would allow loading to higher chamber pressures and resulting muzzle velocity than would be useable in the 'favorite' action even with improved strength pins and screws.

The resulting cartridge would retain the powder chamber volume to hold between 9 and 10 grains of Black Powder so could still be named perhaps ".25-10 Stevens Center Fire" ("25-20 SCF") and, if loaded with a nominal .251" diameter bullet, still used in the 'Favorite' action and barrel/chamber combination.

What do the other members of the Forum think of these ideas?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

Check in Frank DeHaas' Single Shot Rifles and Actions for particulars on your barrel. He has illustrations of barrel shanks, their dimensions and threadings in the appendix. All the 44 barrels I've seen for the .25-20SS are marked ".25-20." I haven't seen many 44's in .25 rimfire, but those I remember seeing were marked the same as the Favorite barrels: ".25-Stevens RF."

Your chamber might have been bushed and reamed out again. If so, there should be a parting line at the breech where the old chamber was bored out. Could you post a picture of the barrel and the breech end?

You will need an action to put the barrel on if you intend to use it. Do you have a line on one? I notice that even Stevens 44 actions and parts are grabbed up pretty quickly, and go for inflationary prices, these days. Investing into specialty bullet moulds and case forming setups for new cartridges for the sake of only a barrel is not very prudent.

You could spare yourself unnecessary work by looking into the .25 Hornet or some of its shortened progeny, like the .25 Junior. These are .22 Hornet shells blown out approximately straight, looking like a small .32-20 in the longer versions, or a straight case in the shorter ones. You would not need to mess with heeled bullets and their quirks and would have a centerfire cartridge suitable for the Stevens 44, assuming you can get an action and the barrel fits it.

[Chev. William]

Bent Ramrod,

I have won an auction for a used copy of Frank De Haas book and am patiently awaiting its delivery through the USPS Mails.

So far, using a 20 power magnifier, I have seen no indication that the chamber nor the barrel have been either 'bushed' or 'lined', but that may be still a possibility as to be sure I would need to polish and etch the breech end of the barrel.

At the moment I have no prospect to obtain a 44 action to use with this Barrel as it is.

The barrel under discussion cost ~$95.00 shipped to me.

I do have another Model 44 barrel, with a poor bore, in .22LR that I picked up with intent to make a "bull Barrel" for a 1894 series action that is still as received in configuration. cost ~$65.00 shipped.

And I have purchased another "25 Caliber" one that is, from photos, a cut down one with the 'spigot' shape to fit a Model 44. In the photos indicate it has been cut back to the point of removing part of the roll markings (Mfg. marking stops after "J. Stevens"), Perhaps that one would be a better candidate for a 'Favorite' Bull Barrel project, I will see when it arrives. Cost ~65.00 shipped.

AS to the 'custom cartridge': I do already have prototype cases for a CF version of the ".25 Stevens Long RF" in both the RF size rims and some made up with .25ACP sized rims (These are called .250ALS for my development experiments). They are formed from .22 Hornet cases run through a Lee Carbide .25ACP sizing die and then machined for rim dimensions and trimmed to the needed length. So case availability is already handled. Another possible option for the "25-20" bore is to use slightly shorter cases loaded as blanks to propel a separately loaded bullet down the barrel to the target, this is a 'Bench Rest' technique I have read about.

At the moment I am thinking of passing the 25-20/.25 Stevens Long Barrel to a person who first offered it a home with his 'orphaned' model 44 actions, but have not made the final decision yet.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[john hayslip]

The barrel is not mismarked. It is chambered for the Stevens 25-20 which is a straight (and expensive) case, not available for years but now available from Bertram, and sometimes through Graf and sons. Dies for it are available from CH-4D. The Winchester is a bottle necked case. Brass and dies are readily available.

[gnoahhh]

The current chamber is way shorter than a .25-20 SS, hence the speculation on what it is.

I would just have it re-chambered to .25-20 SS and be done with it. Jamison brass (available from Buffalo Arms) is excellent. Forget the Bertram brass unless you like dealing with brass of indifferent quality. Dies are readily available, and 'standard' .25 bullet molds work well. Forget about having to deal with heeled bullets or any other reloading alchemy.

[Chev. William]

And I have purchased another "25 Caliber" one that is, from photos, a cut down one with the 'spigot' shape to fit a Model 44. In the photos indicate it has been cut back to the point of removing part of the roll markings (Mfg. marking stops after "J. Stevens"), Perhaps that one would be a better candidate for a 'Favorite' Bull Barrel project, I will see when it arrives. Cost ~65.00 shipped.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

The previously listed "obviously cut down" Stevens Model 44 barrel in "25(?)" caliber arrived today.
it is what appears to be another 25-20 caliber barrel with almost all of the chamber cut off and the 'Spigot' nearly finished in its re-cut. This 'spigot' has a .805" diameter next to the Octagon end about .55" long, then a 'thread relief' of about .76" Diameter and about .120" long followed by a threaded section .about .46" long then another smooth section .52" long and .75' diameter.
the next is a "cutoff' groove followed by a .72" diameter stub that contains the remainder of the original chamber, i think. Overall the barrel measures 23-1/8" from muzzle to the 'cutoff' groove and 24" overall.
The round front portion measures 15-5/16" and the remaining Octagon section measures 6.00" long.
Bore was very dirty as received, but several passes with a bore brush followed by patches cleaned out the dirt and surface corrosion that may have been present. It now looks shiny even before having an oiled patch run through it.
There is rifling visible full length of the barrel from muzzle to front of the chamber remainder. but it varies in visible depth, with the muzzle appearing to be the shallowest rifling. Slugged the barrel and it varied in force required over the length of barrel with both tight and loose spots detectible. The dimensions seem similar to the previously reported barrel. The exterior is 'black rust' stained over most of it surface. The stamping is even shorter than it appeared in the photos with the Auction. Mfg. markings end right at the beginning of the terminal "S" in 'Stevens, and just the left most tips of the second "S" in 'Mass.'.
The '25' caliber mark ends right at the rightmost tip of the "5". The "serial number" on the bottom reads "34 067" and there is a "2" stamped in the bottom octagon flat.
It appears to be a good candidate for conversion to fit a Favorite Action, it is already too far gone to be used on a Model 44 with pride.

Additionally, Tracking information indicates that my copy of Frank De Haas book arrived at he USPS Sorting facility in Bell gardens today, only one or two day to wait now, I hope.

Best Regards,
Chev William

[gnoahhh]

Hmmm.... If the rifling is that bad, I personally wouldn't waste my time installing it on a receiver without re-boring or re-lining it. The thing is, if it's destined to go on a Favorite action, you're cartridge selection is limited. I would be sorely tempted to line it for .22RF and be done with it.

[Chev. William]

Relining is a probable option, especially since the barrel is of a heavier "Scantlines" than the usual 1894 Series Stevens Favorite barrels I have seen advertized.

Eventual disposition will depend upon what I can afford to have done to it and by whom.

With the Selection of Actions (two 1894 series, rebuilt and upgraded with stronger pins and screws, and one 1915 action, still to be received in a lawful California Purchase Process) I will have available, the possible calibers and cartridge selections improves somewhat.

There are even the "tung in cheek" 'mildcat' heeled bullet variations on the .25 Stevens case and lengths. It is too bad this barrel's bore seems to be poorer in manufacturing tolerances than the one that promopted the start of this Thread.

As is, it would probably finish up as a nice "standard length" 1894 barrel but without full markings.

It would probably finish up as a short heavy 1915 Barrel also with the same markings problem.

The ~.800" minimum diameter of the barrel does lend itself to potential relining and possiblily extending, with a .30 caliber liner/turned down used barrel. I know That some .30 Carbine builders used that trick to get a newer barrel for a 'shot out' Carbine one, by turning down an good condition M1903 barrel and pressing it into a bored out Carbine barrel Butt end.

This is something to look into, especially if there are "good condition" long barrels available for low enough prices to make it attractive. I wonder how a Marlin take off 'Micro groove' might work IF in a suitable caliber and long enough to cut and chamber in a suitable cartridge?

Many things to consider and to 'ponder upon'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[uscra112]

The barrel is not mismarked. It is chambered for the Stevens 25-20 which is a straight (and expensive) case, not available for years but now available from Bertram, and sometimes through Graf and sons. Dies for it are available from CH-4D. The Winchester is a bottle necked case. Brass and dies are readily available.

.25-20 Stevens is not a straight case. It is mildly bottlenecked, as a consequence of it being originated by necking down the .32 Wesson, which was a straight case. High quality brass is available from Captech International, (nee Jamison) and has been for several years. It is admittedly expensive, but actually easier to find that .25-20WCF these days, since it is always in stock at Captech. (BTW Bertram's stuff is not worth the money to ship it.)

[uscra112]

This is something to look into, especially if there are "good condition" long barrels available for low enough prices to make it attractive. I wonder how a Marlin take off 'Micro groove' might work IF in a suitable caliber and long enough to cut and chamber in a suitable cartridge?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

I had excellent success cutting a Marlin .22 barrel down for a Hopkins & Allen boy's rifle action. Picked up a couple more off evilBay, (before they got all anti-gunner) and haqve 'em lined up to rebarrel Stevens Marksman (Model 12) rifles if I ever get my lathe back in action. Takeoff barrels from Ruger 10-22s are a dime a dozen, but pick only a blued steel one - the stainless ones are harder than the hubs of hell. I ruined a reamer on one once.

A very-much-turned-down .30-30 Microgroove might make an interesting experiment with a .32 S&W chamber in it, on a Favorite.

[John Boy]

but those I remember seeing were marked the same as the Favorite barrels: ".25-Stevens RF."

The 94 that I have is marked "Stevens 25" only and it is chambered for the 25 rimfire.
To the best of my knowledge - Stevens did not make a center fire caliber the 94 action - it being too thin for center fire pressures

[uscra112]

My .25 Rimfire Model 12 Marksman barrel is marked just "25-STEVENS", no RF in the marking. That barrel is almost smooth inside - will be replaced with one of the cut-down Marlin .22 barrels as mentioned above.

[Chev. William]

My .25 Rimfire Model 12 Marksman barrel is marked just "25-STEVENS", no RF in the marking. That barrel is almost smooth inside - will be replaced with one of the cut-down Marlin .22 barrels as mentioned above.

I am still pondering what I will do with the first 'model 44' 25-20 barrel.
Also I am looking for possible liner source to allow use of .25 Stevens size cartridges through the second 'model 44' 25 (-20) Barrel and extend it to at least 24 inches, or longer, 'Bull Barrel' again for bench and Off Hand Target shooting with one of my 'favorite' actions, not for any Hunting, My body does not like long hikes nor rough camping any more.

I had two days of work last week and have another work call for 0630PDT Thursday, My World is Good.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Jon K]

I had to take my Stevens 44 25-20SS apart after reading this thread.
All the sizes match my rifle...but for the chamber size.

You're lucky the groove diameter is .257, mine slugs .260. I'm using NOE .260 80gr GC, It drops @.2605 my alloy.

Jon