Velocity threshold for cast rifle boolits.

[stepmac]

Agree with you about the ratio of kills with cast at moderate vols compaired to jacketed. Speed doesn't always kill! Or at least kill well!
1Shirt!

I agree. I had a nice talk with John Nosler a few years ago. He told me a story of shooting an H&H magnum and the bullets blew up right underneath the hide on the elk he was banging away at. Took him 8 shots to bring the animal down.

Penetration, he explained to me, was the key and cast bullets penetrate! For decades surplus Krag rifles using Military ammo were considered perfect elk medicine. Why? Hard long slow moving bullets that shot straight thru the animal.

I am trying to wean myself off of jacketed bullets to shoot more cast. I shoot a lot of old guns. They take kindly to cast bullets. Most of my hunting is birds. So I shoot a Parker, Lefever and Fox gun. Old guns rule.

[DanWalker]

Went out and did some more shooting. Found out that the FH was NOT the culprit. MY OAL on my ammo was. I got these dies in the trade for the gun, and just loaded with them. Never bothered to check to see how deeply my boolits were seated. After taking a GOOD look at my ammo, I noticed how short they looked. I had the boolits seated way too deep in the case. Once I adjusted my seating die to put me just into the lands when I close the bolt, groups shrank right down. I'm now averaging around 1"- 1 1/4" 3 shot groups @ 100 yards. Now it's time to load a bunch of them and go spend some quality time with this rifle, shooting from various positions.

[Piedmont]

For decades surplus Krag rifles using Military ammo were considered perfect elk medicine. Why? Hard long slow moving bullets that shot straight thru the animal.

Are you sure about that? Factories made 220 grain softpoints for the Krag. The military issued 220 gr. FMJ. Military ammo would mean FMJ.

[9.3X62AL]

The 220 grain 30 caliber RN has a rep for penetration like few others. I would not by choice use the FMJ 220 on game animals, but I would imagine its ability to penetrate might compensate to some degree for its inability to expand. Now, a Nosler Partition of 200-220 grains in weight.....THAT is a 30 caliber nasty-critter pill if ever there was one!

I cannot recall my source document, it may have been by Capstick--but the FMJ RN is deeply respected in Africa for its ability to penetrate in straight tracks through game animals, while spitzer FMJs have shown themselves repeatedly to slough off into arcs other than that of the bullet's external trajectory prior to target contact. As always, in the game fields or the urban alley we seek that balanced result of "controlled expansion" in an effort to maximize the effects of the shots we fire to stop our target.

How this applies to our cast boolit applications.......MANY of the classic cast boolit designs for rifles of many calibers employ the round nose or round flat nose point profile. These designs have withstood the test of time for some reason, and the few spitzer or semi-spitzer designs don't seem to hang on well. Again, there must be a reason. I've had good success with the RCBS 22-55 and 6mm-95 patterns that have something of a spitzer aspect to them. These have shot well to 1900 FPS or so (on paper), and they dust off ground squirrels and jackrabbits in abrupt and complete fashion. Would I trust them to down any critter larger than a coyote? Not at all, even if cast as soft-points.....which is one stunt I am disinterested in attempting. My own feelings on game-taking with rifle castings......30 caliber minimum, 170 grain minimum, softer alloy or soft point metallurgy, and all the velocity that my ammo can manage with attendant accuracy. I've taken enough hatracks that I can willingly "pass" on marginal shots......in my 20s, I was not so discerning, though I didn't lose any deer through thoughtless shot-taking. The gods of the hunt were looking out for the quarry, even if I wasn't so much. Even then, losing a fine game animal in that way would have disturbed me greatly--I am grateful to have not been the cause of such an outcome.

[runfiverun]

the 30-40 krag had a round available from umc at the time that looked like a round nose fmj but was in fact a round nose fmj hollow point it was an "expanding" bullet it just didn't have exposed lead at the tip.

[MT Gianni]

Are you sure about that? Factories made 220 grain softpoints for the Krag. The military issued 220 gr. FMJ. Military ammo would mean FMJ.

Piedmont, Not sure but believe that the Krag ammo referred to would have preceded the Geneva Convention.

[onceabull]

That UMC bullet mentioned above is a serious penetrator in the 30/40, they loaded both Remington and Peters label with it,and used the same bullet in some of their 30/06 loads under both labels--made to hold togather at 30/06 impact velocities,so once the game was out there a ways, the 30/40 didn't expand very much at all...if you stumble into some 300 H&H ammo loaded with that one,BUY ,& you will have some serious elk cartridges for use in the thickets where it's shoot now,or suck eggs.. Onceabull

[BruceB]

Hmmm.... several ol' buddies chiming in here, so I might's well too.

From personal experience, I am a great fan of the .30-caliber 200-grain-plus bullets. I used the 200 Nosler Partition on moose with stellar results, and likewise the 215-grain .303 British (Dominion-brand 215 KKSP) on moose with similar results. Hunting partners used the .30'06 220 softpoints on various animals, and they all died forthwith.

I could happily hunt North America with a .30-40 Krag and its 220-grain load (or even the 180), with the possible exception of the BIG bears and Wood Bison. Having said that, I hasten to add that I carried a .303 Lee Enfield with 180- and 215-grain Dominion softpoints as a defensive rifle in polar bear country, and never lost any sleep about it.

Having used those rounds on moose, I had zero doubts about their effectiveness against the white bears. Any shooting against those critters would have been at close range and urgently needed.... perfect situation for the fast-firing .303. Fortunately the rifle wasn't needed for polar bears, but it was a full-time presence...and considerable comfort. I DID use the .303 against other bears, and it performed just as I expected.

[Piedmont]

Piedmont, Not sure but believe that the Krag ammo referred to would have preceded the Geneva Convention.

I am not positive myself but all the other RN jacketed military ammo of the period, like 7x57, .303, various 6.5s and I think even .30-03 was FMJ. This was the stuff used in Africa on rhinos and elephants and stuff. Then in the first decade of the 20th century, roughly, everyone switched to a lighter FMJ with a spire point that tumbled in flesh plus was going another couple hundred fps. faster which made a huge difference on human targets.

Soft points were always offered in the military calibers on the sporting market. I am not doubting the 220gr. .30-40 was an elk cartridge, but think it made its reputation with a soft point. Heck, even Elmer Keith liked the .30-40 220gr. load.

[DanWalker]

How a country as idiotically anti gun as England could come up with a rifle as absolutely magnificent as the LEE Enfield, just boggles the mind....

[MBTcustom]

How a country as idiotically anti gun as England could come up with a rifle as absolutely magnificent as the LEE Enfield, just boggles the mind....

Truer words were never spoken.
It just shows to go ya. Gun control works.

[Piedmont]

How a country as idiotically anti gun as England could come up with a rifle as absolutely magnificent as the LEE Enfield, just boggles the mind....

Britain wasn't really anti-gun until the days following WW1. As I understand it, communism plus a disgruntled population of war veterans that were not hesitant to shoot people after going through the meat grinder of the Great War, frightened the powers-that-be so much that that started the big push to disarmament of the population.

Any of you fellows that live over there feel free to correct me.

[fred2892]

After ww1 pretty much every European nation had a whiff of revolution in the air. Real or imagined this threat was countered by legislation which can be seen as the birth of gun laws.
The anti gun image we now have was brought about by incidents similar to your sandy hook and columbine in which the national media whipped the general public into an anti gun frenzy. Imminent government elections also meant that the political parties that included anti gun policies were sure to gain votes.
In the 1980s we lost our semi auto rifles after an incident involving a lone gunman heavily armed shot anyone he came across while walking/stalking his home village.
Exactly the same happened in the 90s when we lost our handguns thanks to an incident when the gunman carrying automatic pistols entered a school killing many pupils and teachers.
We can still legally own semi auto .22 rifles and any calibre rifle as long as it isn't semi auto. We also have muzzle loaders in any format including revolvers.
A couple of years ago we had an individual driving around a northern town with a shotgun killing anyone who got in his way. There was no media frenzy and no imminent election. Shotguns were not banned.
During consultations and debates leading up to the semi auto rifle and handgun ban our NRA chose to meekly roll over and offer no resistance to the proposals whatsoever. This once grand association has nowadays very little respect from anyone within the shooting community.
In the decade following the handgun ban (1997-2007) gun crime here doubled with 85% of incidents involving ' banned' handguns, proving that when guns are outlawed only outlaws have guns.

[dlbarr]

My 45-70 deer load is a 450 grain lee rnfp at 1380 fps. Punches right through and only damages rib meat about 2" diameter around in/out holes. I don't get dead right there kills often, but they never go any farther than 30 yards.

What's your load behind that bullet, Djones?

[kootne]

I would say my experience is similar to dlbarr's. The rifle I shot the most stuff with using cast bullets is a 45/75 original '76 with black powder and original style bullets. (350 gr. @ 1350). Everything I shot with would have died quicker shot with my .30-06. Most took 2 shots instead 1 that the '06 usually gives. But all would have died from the first shot , just not as quick. Meat loss was way, way less than the '06. These are critters ranging from speed goats to bull elk.
kootne

[cbrick]

Just read through a 180 post thread, interesting stuff and a shame it kinda died out. It confirmed some things I thought I knew, brought up questions I've always had and a few things I had never considered, maybe a bump here can get it going again.

Rick

[TXGunNut]

Thread does have a lot to offer, Rick. I've learned some of the reasons behind boolit behavior I've observed but didn't understand from this and another sticky on the subject. I quite honestly didn't understand the concept when I first read about it, still some facets I don't fully understand yet. I think many of the disagreements on the subject are due to variables and factors given too much or too little consideration. All I can say for sure is that velocity threshold is one of the keys to making cast boolits behave more like j-words in flight.

[robg]

as fred said we were screwed by our goverments .there terified we,ll see through there smoke and mirrors

[Bob Busetti]

I've been getting 2000 fps with RCBS 200 gr cast using 54.0 H4831 in my 348 carbine, been shooting the Lee 170 at 1900 fps in my model 94 30/30 carbine, using 32.0 Blc2. Both very accurate. Both cast from wheel weights.
Bob

[DanWalker]

That RCBS 200 is a great boolit Bob. I put a ranch dog 190 from a Marlin lever gun through the shoulders of a big warthog a couple years ago from about 65 yards away. Impact sounded like a hit with a baseball bat. He did two forward flips, trying to run with two broken shoulders, before just collapsing and dying.