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Thread: Velocity threshold for cast rifle boolits.

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch4122 View Post
    That sounds like a good plan. Does your rifle have a muzzle break screwed on the end? Just thinking out loud here. A muzzle break may not accomplish the same as ports in the barrel for our purposes. Also, I would try a bullet weight that will give higher muzzle pressures than the 210 grn slugs I have had success with. Probably a good idea to find a 180-190 grn slug that fits well and port the barrel itself.

    Michael and I talked on the phone today briefly about this project. He has a sporterized 1891 Argentine Mauser that he shortened the barrel of a few years ago. At that time a load that had previously shot like gangbusters (with the longer barrel) was a real dog after a couple of inches was removed. I suggested at that time that he go to the next fastest burning powder he had; he did, and the accuracy he wanted came back. He has offered to provide this barrel for porting. The idea is that we will go back to the original load with the slower burning powder and see if the accuracy comes back once the barrel is ported.

    Now if we can just find a "reasonably priced" self taught & semi-retired gunsmith to port the barrel?
    No muzzle brake, just a protector bushing. I was thinking 180-ish boolits, and porting the barrel itself with a series of small holes, like 3/32" or even smaller.

    I think Mike's rifle is a better candidate for this test because he already has the loads, including one for the barrel before it was cut, so the attempt to restore the original load performance via porting the cut barrel would be positive proof. Of course the harmonic nodes of the short barrel will still be quite a bit different, so the original load may still require tweaking, but perhaps the porting can at least make the slower-burning load more viable.

    Gear

  2. #142
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    the experience iv'e had with the slower powders has shown me that when they just clean up and burn stable you are just about there as far as max velocity and accuracy.
    you are generally in the 90% case full range before/when that happens.


    Exactly why I recommend a range of slower powders to work with. With those the efficient point and where accuracy will be the best is right at the point "when they just clean up and burn stable. That is usually where the balance of best velocity with a lower time/pressure curve and low muzzle psi occurs.

    The faster, medium burning powders mentioned will usually allow good accuracy up to the normal max RPM threshold of around 140,000 RPM. To really push beyond that the slow burners are best to work with but the cartridge must have the capacity and the barrel the length for the point of "when they just clean up and burn stable" to be reached.

    Larry Gibson

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357maximum View Post
    Hey Matt...iffin ya need help I know how to drill a hole completely through a barrel.....I am so good at it I can do it on accident. ......just figured I would beat one of yall to the punch.
    Who'd do such a thing???

    Interesting ideas guys.

    I would be willing to set Maximum Max up to extend his porting abilities to multi-porting since he has proved proficient with single porting.

    I'm thinking Gear is likely on to a good idea about the configuration of pressure relieving ports. Actually I was thinking that maybe 4 or six holes located about an inch from the muzzle would be a good start. Then after initial testing, maybe add another row in the direction of the breech of smaller holes to see if a stepped relief would have more effect on accuracy.

    As for harmonics, I have no doubt that shortening the barrel would have an effect on harmonics but I personally don't believe the harmonics would affect the accuracy as dramatically as Mike experienced, but I could be wrong. Mike would have to give the specifics, but if I recall correctly he shortened the barrel by only a couple inches.

    Edd
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  4. #144
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    The barrel was 24.5 inches in length...I foolishly cut it to 21.

    I still have all the pertinent data/some targets as well as some loaded rounds from before I made the error....this will be an easy experiment and I could care less how many holes get poked in the barrel in the name of science. It is getting unscrewed at the end of this anyway. I had to drop from the H4350/H414 range of powders down to Varget to regain any accuracy along with speed. It would still make a handy deer rifle, but I have "fixed" my oops with another 1891 that will retain 25 inches of barrel for the rest of the time I posess it. The short little barrel is getting replaced with a 7X57 barrel when $$ allows it.

  5. #145
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    is there any software out there that anyone knows of that can predict the chamber/barrel and exit pressure of different bullet/powder combinations, it would be very helpful about now . . . R.

  6. #146
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    pressure trace equipment by ohler.

  7. #147
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-...ckload-review/

    cheers onefiverun, i was hoping for something like this, if only its library had boolits, it does'nt say - the panel at the bottom lefthand side shows pressure/time barrel length information that would be helpfull.

    R.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Rsst, I'm up to 2400 in a 308 carbine.
    Can we get details on this load and boolit please?
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  9. #149
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    I so look forward to the day when I reach expert status......proably be about 3 minutes before they plant my *** in Mother Earth unfortunately.

    34 grains of Rel 10 gives me 2418 fps with the 311291 in my 21 inch barrelled Spanish Mauser (cutoff originial barrel 1/9.5 twist). Accuracy is 1.5-1.7 inches at 100 yards.....with a reciever sight not a scope. I basically pulled that load out of my posterior simply going from past experiences. The muzzle was cut on one of them spinny thing machines with a 3way chuck that make the barrelled action go round and round and round while some carbide makes an inferior muzzle somehow.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    As the muzzle exit pressure increases, the quality of the crown and CB must increase to maintain accuracy. The magnitude of the pressure is irrelevant.
    At what point is increasing the "quality of the crown" impossible given modern tolerances. At what point can we no longer produce a higher quality cast boolit with the tools we have?

    So, if this is true, then all I need is a perfect crown, a perfect cast slug, with a perfect gas check, seated perfectly on the base; at which point I would be able to shoot high velocity cast out of let's say a 22" - 24" barreled .308-.30/06 with benchrest accuracy using a 160 grn boolit and the slowest burning powder I can find?

    Also, does alloy strength matter? Seems to me it does. With Edd's copper enhanced alloys we have been able to push loads with accuracy that absolutely will not stay on the paper at 100 yards with the traditional lead/antimony/tin alloys. It's the addition of copper that toughens the alloy and allows it to withstand higher peak psi and muzzle pressure.

    While I can accept that we can reduce factors that will contribute to errors in the end product. I don't believe that any of us have perfect rifles with perfect muzzles and can produce absolutely perfect cast slugs every time. Nor do I believe that only one or two factors are all that one needs to overcome for success here.
    -Matt
    Group Buys Honcho'd: C326-175-FN, 434-210-RF, C434-210-RF, 30-165-SIL-MOD, 358156-PB, 413-170-Keith, C348-225-FN, 8mm SIL, 45-230-CM, 45-270-Ohaus/SWC, Edd's 28-170-FN

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch4122 View Post

    Also, does alloy strength matter? Seems to me it does. With Edd's copper enhanced alloys we have been able to push loads with accuracy that absolutely will not stay on the paper at 100 yards with the traditional lead/antimony/tin alloys. It's the addition of copper that toughens the alloy and allows it to withstand higher peak psi and muzzle pressure.
    Is this toughened alloy suitable for hunting? Will it expand, or shatter? If it is malleable, what is the lower velocity limit on expansion? This is fascinating stuff, but I fear it is a can of worms with NO BOTTOM....
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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanWalker View Post
    Is this toughened alloy suitable for hunting? Will it expand, or shatter? If it is malleable, what is the lower velocity limit on expansion? This is fascinating stuff, but I fear it is a can of worms with NO BOTTOM....
    Edd's copper enhanced alloys are tougher without being brittle. The key here is to mix an alloy that has a low copper content which will still be maleable and expand or "rivet" on impact. To date, the alloys which have worked best for hunting have been mixed with approximately .15% and less copper in them. More copper and you end up with a slug that will drill 1/8" deep divets in hardened steel plate at 250 yards.

    357maximum has had excellent performance on game simply mixing 1/2 - 1 pounds of a particular babbit into a full pot of 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead; and water dropping the slugs. Another benefit to these alloys is that if they are cast and air cooled you end up with a boolit that is 17-18 BHN, but is much less brittle than Lyman #2.

    You can easily mix up one of these alloys by ordering some Roto-Nickle Babbit from Roto-Metals. I suggest mixing 60% clip on wheelweights to 40% pure lead and adding 1 pound of rotonickle to a 40 lb. pot or 1/2 pound of rotonickle to a 20 lb. pot. This will give you a relatively balanced alloy. Cast them air cooled for the heavy boolit big bores (.45-70, .444 etc.) and handguns, as well as the .30-30 & .35 Remington class of cartridges with gas checked boolits. Any cartridge producing more pressure and velocity will require water dropping. Size and lube within a few days and let them stabilize for a week before shooting.

    Hope this helps,
    -Matt
    Group Buys Honcho'd: C326-175-FN, 434-210-RF, C434-210-RF, 30-165-SIL-MOD, 358156-PB, 413-170-Keith, C348-225-FN, 8mm SIL, 45-230-CM, 45-270-Ohaus/SWC, Edd's 28-170-FN

  13. #153
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    I don't know about you guys, but this thread is just about to reach nirvana stage for me. I wish there were more threads dealing with cutting edge stuff like this, but it seems like we finally get a good thread started, and all kinds of groovy info I never thought of comes to the surface! My rifle is going to start peeing on it's leg when I look sideways at it! LOL!
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  14. #154
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    the alloy mix dutch shows is pretty good.
    I was getting in the .20% area with the copper and it was doing fairly well on paper testing and dry dirt reclamation.
    you will still have to do some tuning to suit your boolits nose [meplat size] and impact velocity balance.
    about .5-.75% tin will help keep the copper in solution while casting and make a decently balanced alloy without affecting the long term hardness.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanWalker View Post
    Is this toughened alloy suitable for hunting? Will it expand, or shatter? If it is malleable, what is the lower velocity limit on expansion? This is fascinating stuff, but I fear it is a can of worms with NO BOTTOM....
    Dan



    No worms from me....them tough mallable alloys like 50/50 with babbit and/or babbit with copper are pure awesome in their narrow window of upper end application.

    If you knew me personally and knew how much a dead whitetail means to me... the following words would hold more meaning.

    1. I am a killer I freely admit that....I enjoy the kill and I will never apologize for that fact. I enjoy the "nature" too do not get me wrong, but watching the pretty leaves fall out the trees in not the prime directive for me.

    2. I WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT TAKE ANYTHING INTO THE DEER WOODS THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE WILL LEAD ME TO 100% SUCCESS IF I DO MY PART. WHEN I KILL A DEER I WANT IT DEAD AS FAST AND AS HUMANELY AS POSSIBLE, BUT THE KEY IS THAT I WANT IT DEAD ASAP. They taste good ya know.

    I have at least two threads from past hunts using either 50/50+babbit or 50/50+cu enriched babbit in the hunting area. I torture tested each combo gun/alloy/load as harshly as I could in order to walk to the woods having as close to THAT 100% certainty that is humanly possible with what I was using would get the job done. If I did not feel 99.9% certain with it I would not have taken it.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...&highlight=doe

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...highlight=meat



    The 50/50+5% babbit will hold together and be mallable to about 2600 fps in a 35 caliber(started showing mild signs of wanting to start coming apart above that speed) . The 50/50+5% cu enriched alloy will hold together in a 7mm flatnosed to at least 2512 fps and is still mallable (fastest I have ran it into/through anything). The 7mm boolit held up to a close steep angled shot that transversed a whole lot of the toughest parts of a deer and showed no sign of detonation, Although I cannot 100% say it was not beginning to come apart if it was it showed no classic signs of it.. I did not find the 7mm boolits from either deer last year. I thought that I should have on the close shot buck but I either missed the exit wound (doubtful yet possible) or I tossed it out with what remained of that bucks boiler room.

    If I had to hunt without the babbit or cu+babbit enrichment I would not feel totally lost as 50/50 wd'ed will get one a looooong ways but these alloys allow one to keep almost normal j-word trajectory while using cast in real rifles and they make your groups alot smaller in anything fast when all your ducks are in a row. Standard 50/50 leap/ww waterdropped will get you all the way to standard 35 rem ballistics with accuracy. If I had to pick a lower limit it would be based on caliber, but generally I would say anything over 2200 is a good time to use these alloys. It is when you want to go a bit above (normal cast rifle velocity) that is when they shine. The accuracy improvement is just an added bonus to their tough/mallable nature.

    I am tired so I hope that makes sense.


    Mike
    Last edited by 357maximum; 10-09-2013 at 12:05 AM. Reason: links added

  16. #156
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    GOOD stuff Mike! I knew about the 50/50 alloy waterdropped. It has been my standard hunting alloy for a while now. I used a 35 caliber ranchdog 190 cast out of it on a warthog in Africa last summer with highly lethal results. I started this thread partially to see how close to jacketed ballistics you all thought I could get in a 308 carbine. 90 percent of my shots nowadays are under 200 yards. Fully 75 percent are less than 125, so the capability of full power jacketed 308 is almost unnecessary. That being said, things do happen... I'd rather have more capability than I need, than need more than I have. I'm no purist. I will be loading partitions for elk this year. I'm hoping to have a boolit and load worked out to hunt elk with by next season. This has turned into a fascinating discussion, and I would like to thank EVERYONE for their input.
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  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosst View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	QuickLOAD_FullScreenP.jpg 
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    http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-...ckload-review/

    cheers onefiverun, i was hoping for something like this, if only its library had boolits, it does'nt say - the panel at the bottom lefthand side shows pressure/time barrel length information that would be helpfull.

    R.
    Quickload's Library DOES have cast bullet info in it. One can also define a bullet and add it to the library to get rather accurate predictions. Included libraries include Lyman, RCBS, and Lee cast bullets. One thing I found was one need to adjust the start pressure a bit to fairly accurate predictions in most cases.

    Edd
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  18. #158
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    I took the m16a2 FH off of my GSR and watched my groups shrink from 6-8" at 100 down to around 1 1/4". I had screwed this FH on because I took the factory one off and put it on my AR. I was just using the AR FH on GSR as a thread protector. I had no idea how badly it would mess with my groups.
    I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.

    Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Dutch - not arguing with you, for a given crown & CB, lower pressure will perturb the exit less.
    Fair enough for me. No need to ruin a good thread like this with minor disagreements when we are all working towards the same goal.

    Dan- The alloys really are easy to mix. As long as you weigh the COWW, PB, and Babbit out in prescribed amounts before throwing them in the pot the rest is back to the basics of pouring good boolits. It has been our experience that these alloys like approximately 725*F for good fillout. Also, make sure that your pure lead is in fact PURE LEAD. Using a soft lead with Antimony already in it will upset the balance of the alloy.

    Also, don't discount using one of these alloys air cooled in hunting handguns, or pistol caliber carbines. My .44 Magnum Marlin and Winchester (USRAC) .357 Magnum simply dote on boolits cast of copper enhanced alloys air cooled and pushed full throttle. Turned them both into solid 250 yard hitters with repeatable accuracy.
    -Matt
    Group Buys Honcho'd: C326-175-FN, 434-210-RF, C434-210-RF, 30-165-SIL-MOD, 358156-PB, 413-170-Keith, C348-225-FN, 8mm SIL, 45-230-CM, 45-270-Ohaus/SWC, Edd's 28-170-FN

  20. #160
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    Thanks Dutch! I'm gonna go to the gettin' place and see if I can lay my hands on some babbit.
    I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.

    Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check