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Thread: Velocity threshold for cast rifle boolits.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanWalker View Post
    Is it possible to have these boolits approach the performance of Nosler Partitions?
    If you got the HP pins with it, then yes..................

  2. #42
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    45-2.1......

    Not making fun of the idea at all--too many folks have been successful with castings at high velocities (2400 FPS+) to dispute their findings and results. Just because someone can't get there doesn't give them license to dispute others' outcomes. I just get the grins because people get so carried away with their defenses and explanations of whatever position they take. Ya gotta make yerself happy with yer results--once that's accomplished, whatever follows is gravy. I have a couple rifles in which dimensional integrity and its relationship with componentry poetry might enable successful work past 2100 FPS, but that remains to be seen. For me, the biggest stumbling blocks have been environmental (windiness) and time conflicts--275 mile round trips for medical treatment are distracting, time-consuming, and expensive. Retirement wasn't supposed to be this way, but God laughs most loudly at those who plan.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanWalker View Post
    I was thinking the composite cast softnose, ALA BruceB, Might be just the ticket to extend the effective killing range of these boolits. I think, as it stands, my .308 MIHEC FP's should kill well out to 200 yards. It is a VERY rare occaision that I have to take a shot past 250. now to open a BIGGER can of worms. Is it possible to have these boolits approach the performance of Nosler Partitions? I know I can drivve the partitions to 2800 fps, so it probably isn't a fair comparison. I will be shooting partitions for elk, until I have a cast load that equals them.
    Dan

    Sorry for getting the thread off track. I answered your question as to why the accuracy was different at different velocities. Every time I give that correct answer (it is ballistic science) the pundits come out as we see. Their response doesn't alter the facts of what you have found and the real reason for the cause of it.

    The fact is a softer cast bullet at 1800 - 2200 fps is indeed and excellent killer of medium game. It is easy enough to get very good hunting accuracy with such softer cast bullets in the 2000 - 2200+ fps range with rifles having 12 - 16" twist barrels depending on caliber. With faster twist barrels 1800 - 1950 fps is very doable. My own preference gives me a max range of 200 yards on deer size+ game as I want enough retained velocity for expansion. That seams to be in the 1400 - 1600 fps range with the alloy I mentioned earlier. Thus with cartridges in barrel twists I can get sufficient hunting accuracy at the max range (just because a load seems to shoot good at 50 yards is no guarantee it will shoot with sufficient accuracy at your max range) I find 200 yards to be an excellent practical limit for those with 2000 - 2200 fps.

    BruceB's composite bullets also work very well and I've used them with success also. I've just been cast the soft ones so long it comes easy. They are easy to load and use (just have to cleaned the barrel every 7 shots or so to maintain the best accuracy which is ok for hunting bullets. They also work extremely well on the terminal end. Which ever way you go you are on the right track.

    Larry Gibson

  4. #44
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    This is an amazing thread!!!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by quilbilly View Post
    This is an amazing thread!!!
    I AGREE!!! I have been wanting to flip this rock over for quite some time, just to see what would crawl out. I knew it would be good!
    I consider my 308 in MY hands to be a 300 yard elk rifle. I'd like to develop a cast boolit load that would allow me to use it as such. Maybe I'm just tilting at windmills. Maybe , no matter what, I will be forced to suffer the humiliation of PAYING for jacketed bullets to hunt elk with.
    I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.

    Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanWalker View Post
    Maybe , no matter what, I will be forced to suffer the humiliation of PAYING for jacketed bullets to hunt elk with.

    Talk like that will get you burned at the stake for heresy!!

  7. #47
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    My .358 at 2100 + or -, has a point blank range of 225 yards. I have a .308 that likes 2450 fps. So, PBR is extended somewhat. No matter to me, as I try to limit myself to 200 yards. I did shoot one buck with the .358 at 225 yards, and boolit performance was perfect.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  8. #48
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    I'm using 20 grains of 2400 right now. Haven't chronoed it, but I'm guessing I'm right around 2,000fps. I don't think there's much more (safe) velocity to be had with this powder. I also have Varget, H335, and IMR4064 in my powder magazine. Anyone more experienced with cast in .308 have a suggestion as to how to proceed? I'm with you Ric, about hardly ever shooting past 200 yards. Even on Antelope, my average shot is 150 yards. I just want to wring every last drop of cast boolit game killing performance I can out of this round. I'd rather have the range capability and not need it, than vice versa. The LAST thing I want is an elk with a pencil sized hole in it's lungs, struggling away and dying miserably.
    I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.

    Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.

  9. #49
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    DanWalker: I'll wager you know already that there is a line of guys running past the horizon that will be quick to inform you that a 308 W. is no where near a real 300 yd Elk rifle,with any bullet known to mortal man..Despite that the oldtimers that killed bulls every year with 30/30s,30/40's and 300 Savages would marvel at that round..Shooting broadside at standing game, anytime your cast load equals or exceeds what a 30/30 does at 100 yds, you are good to go as far as my standards. If you are going to have to kill bulls in the stick timber after the opening w'k end ,I'd get more gun... JMO, Onceabull
    "The Eagle is no flycatcher"

  10. #50
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    Dan

    A 300 yard cast bullet load for elk with your Ruger Scout .308W?

    Might save yourself a lot of frustration and get a .358W or 35 Whelen with a 22" or longer barrel with 14 or 16" twist barrels. Use a 200+ gr soft cast bullet and mildlely HP'd. Loaded to 2300 - 2400+ fps you will easily have your 300 yard cast bullet elk riifle.

    Larry Gibson

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by onceabull View Post
    DanWalker: I'll wager you know already that there is a line of guys running past the horizon that will be quick to inform you that a 308 W. is no where near a real 300 yd Elk rifle,with any bullet known to mortal man..Despite that the oldtimers that killed bulls every year with 30/30s,30/40's and 300 Savages would marvel at that round..Shooting broadside at standing game, anytime your cast load equals or exceeds what a 30/30 does at 100 yds, you are good to go as far as my standards. If you are going to have to kill bulls in the stick timber after the opening w'k end ,I'd get more gun... JMO, Onceabull
    Hear, Hear!! Dittos

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by onceabull View Post
    DanWalker: I'll wager you know already that there is a line of guys running past the horizon that will be quick to inform you that a 308 W. is no where near a real 300 yd Elk rifle,with any bullet known to mortal man..Despite that the oldtimers that killed bulls every year with 30/30s,30/40's and 300 Savages would marvel at that round. Onceabull
    I'd wager that line of guys are wearing "Best of the West" baseball hats and sitting on their butts in their trucks. Me and them don't have much to say to each other. I'm over with the grizzled old guys with the battered and scarred 30/06's, who are either lacing up their hiking boots or saddling up their horses.
    Last edited by DanWalker; 09-26-2013 at 08:19 PM.
    I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.

    Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.

  13. #53
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    I cant tell you how bad this bums me out. I'd give a week of my life now to have one or two of those days hunting with my Dad as a kid. I truely wish you had the same experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by felix View Post
    Scouter, I cannot answer your question(s) about shooting anything but paper and/of charging tin cans. I am not a game shooter. I "had" to go hunting with my granddad and dad when "requested" as a student when growing up. Often in pure darkness and in terrible cold. They were showing me the ropes in their minds. Why? So I can be man some day. However, I hated to be around the eventful kitchen later, and still as of today refrain from any kind of culinary duties stemming from way back when. Smells, skinning, shelling, etc. Psychological only, I'm sure, but I leave the area when food is cooking still today. ... felix
    I was trying to keep this to a hunting subject not RMP threashold Part 16....

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanWalker View Post
    I'd wager that line of guys are wearing "Best of the West" baseball hats and sitting on their butts in their trucks. Me and them don't have much to say to each other. I'm over with the grizzled old guys with the battered and scarred 30/06's, who are either lacing up their hiking boots or saddling up their horses.
    Hehehehe!

    I'd say with a 2" exit wound at 90y you had some decent expansion. Just add a touch of tin to harden it up and see if you can get another 250fps. If you want a true partition performance make that sucker pretty hard, I'm thinking powder selection is going to be rough in that scout rifle. Try R7 it seems to work well just after the pistol powders get too hot.

    I wish you the BEST of luck. I played with my 1:10 30-06 to do what you want and got to the point I changed my plan and went to a 375H&H for cast only that did exactly that. I can put 5 rounds in a heart at 400y and beyond with more retained energy than any 30 caliber.

  15. #55
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    338 Federal or 358 Re-bore and choose your twist? That will let you keep that sweet carbine, tighten up the chamber and move you into 225-250g weights still in the 2200-2500fps range.

    I have a rifle I want to send to JES and most folks here keep recomending the 358WIN. I however keep going back to the 338Federal for a dual purpose cast and jacketed rifle. So many good bullet selections and some decent boolit selections too. They both can take 180-250s but the 338s are going to have better BCs.

    I've even eyed that Scout rifle of yours thinking it would be good platform for this.

  16. #56
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    RX7 is an excellent cast powder for 308; I've been having very good results from AA2015 as of late. Might try that too.

  17. #57
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    From MY testing of HP against "composite" soft nose bullets in both 35 and 45 caliber, it SEEMS the HP's act more like varmint style bullets. They blow a short wide entry but still continue to some depth. The soft nose bullets (at the same velocity) seem to penetrate deeper and make a wide /long wound channel. In essence, a long funnel as opposed to a short wide one. Both BASES may exit a deer but the soft nose WILL.! A "hunting" bullet is different than a target bullet in that it MUST do damage to the target. A target bullet only needs to poke a hole in the paper. I consider ACCURACY to be very important, but NOT the only thing.
    Another plus to Soft point cast bullets ,is you do not NEED lots of them. 5 or 10 will do for an entire season in most areas. Just cast "normal" bullets for practice, the SN's fly the same!

  18. #58
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhalcott View Post
    From MY testing of HP against "composite" soft nose bullets in both 35 and 45 caliber, it SEEMS the HP's act more like varmint style bullets.
    Small diameter short depth HPs in 30 cal and below seem to work a bit different than you've found. Results, good or bad, depend almost entirely on alloy choice and intended strike velocity. The main problem for Dan and others that want to try the BruceB method of soft pointing is that the mold is a Cramer style. That might not do well with that method.

  20. #60
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    OK--I actually got a test-drive on a BruceB SoftPoint yesterday on an animal of size. Pull up a chair and enjoy the story--I surely enjoyed the interlude.

    I have been making several runs between Ridgecrest and Redlands/San Bernardino/Colton over the past couple weeks, and I've seen coyotes at least once and sometimes 2-4 times on each round trip. No need to go off-highway, they cross U.S. 395 or the secondary roads pretty casually. Locally, there are LOTS of them around, and they are doing things right--they all look sleek, well-fed, and fair-sized for a critter that Mark Twain once described as "the living, breathing allegory of Want."

    It occurred to me on the last trip south to see Buckshot that I should have a rifle behind the seat of the truck, since these song dogs seemed so intent upon suicide gestures. To that end I cased up my Win 94 in 30-30 WCF, and filled its mag tube with loads tipped by Lyman #311041 cast as BBSPs and sized @ .310". WLR primers would start the music, 18.0 grains of SR-4759 provided the shove, and W-W cases contained the mess.

    I was northbound on 395 just south of Cuddeback Road when I saw a large solo song dog lope across the highway ahead of me eastward, right on Cuddeback Road. He had that casual rocking-horse gait they use when confident that all is right in their world, that chow was plentiful and they're rolling fat. Confidence......the feeling you have before the whole story is known.

    I slowed and turned right onto the unpaved road behind this critter, expecting him to hit overdrive and thin out. They get hunted A LOT hereabouts. I matched his speed, and stayed about 60-70 yards behind him while getting the cased rifle from behind the seat. No change in speed, still on the road. I stopped about 200 yards east of the highway, out of the truck and levered a round into the chamber. I found him through the wide aperture of the Lyman sight (no eyepiece), and tracked him as he slowed, stopped--and looked back at me.

    You done messed up, yodel unit. I fired at once, and THWOCK came the sound of a solid hit, and the coyote went down like someone pulled a rug out from under his feet, and not a twitch after impact. 110 stepped paces away, the casting hit him just behind the left ribcage end, going in with 30 caliber aspect but continuing out just in front of the right shoulder with a 1-1/2" crater that showed lung tissue protruding. High-velocity blood spattering was on a creosote bush behind the critter, and on the ground between the target and the bush. Buzzards gotta eat, too.

    Not a full-sized game animal, maybe 35# or so, and healthy as hell before I came along. No two gunshot wounds are ever alike, so I have some reservations about making judgements based on this example......but projecting this kind of damage onto a subsequent game shot, I'm confident that the BBSP could do humane harvesting of deer-sized animals to at least the range I hit this 'yote (100 yards+). I used a 72 grain donor slug (Lyman #257420 in pure lead) for the point, the drive band portion was 92/6/2 alloy, and a Hornady gas check was in place. Muzzle velocity is about 1700 FPS per my prior chronography.

    A great day......new glasses ordered down south, live-critter test of the BBSPs, and the 49er's whupped the Rams but good while I enjoyed grilled brats with Marie, the sis-in-law, and her hubby.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check