Hunting with full wadcutters

[45 2.1]

I am going to stick to the idea it is where energy is placed for the size of the animal and deer, being small, need energy applied sooner.

Congratulations Jim.... you have that part correct.

[44man]

Attachment 82979Fine to disagree, it is why we are here. I kill many deer and do a necropsy on all to see what the boolit did. A clean hole of boolit size only is very bad. Deer can easily go 200 yards with no blood trail until 100 yards from impact.
I still work at it every season, still needs work.
I prefer a deer to go a very short distance with a bucket of ruined lungs and blood on the ground over anything. I leave CNS hits out of it.
We all know shutting down the pump with just a hole can leave no blood trail too and a deer can make 100 yards fast, the pump has to run to force blood out the holes. But blow the lungs and the heart up and you will see or hear the deer drop close.
The picture is ideal with no meat damage. All energy placed just right.
I lost a few deer with too fast and a WFN, found the rest over 200 yards, switched to the Hornady bullet with success and tried softer cast that destroyed a shoulder and bloodshot the whole deer.
The only way to be confident is to see what works ALL the time. I refuse to blow all the meat up just to kill so it is a fine line to walk.

[alamogunr]

that is a bullet from Old West Bullet Moulds, had custom done.



from crimp to top of meplat is .330 as I recall.

If you want this from OWBM just call him and ask for it, the cherry is already done so you won't have to pay that.

I believe that was a GB sometime back. I have one but have not cast with it. Too many other projects. I got it as a possible self defense load in a S&W 696. Max. distance would probably(hopefully never!) be under 10-15 yds.

[44man]

Congratulations Jim.... you have that part correct.

Yes, I have 2 revolvers I won't hunt with this season until I work it out, just the right expansion, no more. No hard boolits. None too soft.
Right now the .475 is tops with a 420 gr at 1350 fps and the .44 is a mainstay with 300 to 330 gr at 1316 fps. The .475 is amazing with hard cast. Deer run into trees and brush piles or drop instantly. I just sit and watch deer smash, crash and drop.
Of all of my revolvers, the .44 never fails and if I could own only one, it is the .44. Many many seasons I put 5 in the cylinder, kill 2 or 3 and still have the other rounds left. The 310 Lee is a super boolit as is the 320 WLN LBT or my 330 gr, all the way to 100 yards.
I can't discount the .45 Colt either, never lost a deer but sights are harder to see on the Vaquero.
Only two things to avoid is a bullet that opens too fast, might break up and stop at big bone or fail to penetrate deep enough. The other goes through too fast without leaving enough damage.
I have a gripe with the ideas that all you need is a hole and energy dump.

[300savage]

44 I sure do agree with you about needing more than just energy and and a hole, but honestly are you not contradicting yourself when you talk of the effectiveness of the hard cast your using , and then on the other hand speak of a pressure wave moving tissue out of the way of the bullet? If that were the case would not the same be happening in this instance?
For the record I do respect what you are doing, and the extent that you go to to figure this deal out.
However some of the things you mention are very difficult for me to get my mind around.

[9.3X62AL]

No large critters with wadcutters to date, but lots of smaller varmints. My experience is 32 SWL or 38/357, BTW. The hollow-base swaged wadcutters running 700-800 FPS in both calibers have tumbled on me past 50 yards. I have some solid wadcutters loaded in 32 Magnum from 750 to 1100 FPS (#313492).......38 Special from 700-900 FPS and 357 Magnum from 900-1200 FPS (#358432). I'm curious to see how well these button-front WCs seated out a bit from the case mouth stay stable (or not) out past 50 yards, and how velocity and resulting RPM affect that.

[44man]

44 I sure do agree with you about needing more than just energy and and a hole, but honestly are you not contradicting yourself when you talk of the effectiveness of the hard cast your using , and then on the other hand speak of a pressure wave moving tissue out of the way of the bullet? If that were the case would not the same be happening in this instance?
For the record I do respect what you are doing, and the extent that you go to to figure this deal out.
However some of the things you mention are very difficult for me to get my mind around.

No, it is the velocity. hard cast with a good meplat works, just don't push them too fast. I still think if you slow them either at the start or in the deer is best. But too slow also just cuts a hole with not enough energy.
I know it is crazy but a hard FN at around 1100 to say 1350 is better then 1600 or higher and one at 900 is also not as good.
I can't give up energy, it is needed and my work is to get it at the right place.
The gun that drives me crazy with hard boolits is the .500 JRH. I shot a lot of deer with it but not a single blood trail yet. It shoots a 440 gr at 1350 but the boolit weight keeps it trucking.
I once shot a deer close and could not find a thing, spent four hours so I chalked it up to a miss. I sat down and shot another at 120 yards, he ran towards me, turned and went into the thick. I gutted him and back tracked, found no blood. I was hooking up my drag and my light picked up white back in the woods. It was the first deer. Now I had two to take out.
How do I explain the huge caliber not working as good as the .44, darn it I can't. I figured the .475 at 1350 was so good that the .500 had to be as good with the same alloy but it has not proven out. Boolit weight seems to enter in.
Once you destroy the insides of an animal and the boolit continues on with a lot of remaining energy, it is a moot point, nothing lost. But what if no energy is applied to tissue, then the lost energy beyond the animal is a waste.
Schools of thought where some think two holes means lost energy, true unless the boolit worked first. The second is energy dump by stopping the boolit and that is really false if the boolit does not penetrate enough.

[300savage]

ok i apologize, i do not disagree with you, i just misunderstood you at first.. i agree completely with what you have to say here, i probably dont understand it near a s well as you but i have always felt it to be this way as well. as far as the mystery of why some of those things are happening with the 500 are beyond me but i bet you get it figured out. thanks for taking the time t o explain your thinking to me.
take care, craig

[44man]

What holds me up is finding time to cast a soft nose while keeping the hard base for accuracy. I am sure it will solve it.
Been having thoughts of drilling the nose and pouring pure lead in. That would keep the ogive hard enough to engage the forcing cone.

[taco650]

that is a bullet from Old West Bullet Moulds, had custom done.




from crimp to top of meplat is .330 as I recall.

If you want this from OWBM just call him and ask for it, the cherry is already done so you won't have to pay that.

What's it weigh and what alloy/mix are you using?

[jmort]

"I can't give up energy"

Your real world experience counts most for you. My opinion is that two holes are the way to go, but it is not about energy per se. A .45 Colt with a 255 grain SWC at 950 FPS will shoot through a deer on a broad side and not much energy dump as you are starting off with around 500 ft lbs to begin with. That will work for sure. Not a lot of tissue damage. Here is 105 grain VLD .243 on a Cow Elk at 688 yards DRT. How much energy does a .243 have at 688 yards? Around 600 ft lbs? No it is not about energy alone. But again, you are out there doing it and who are you going to believe, me, or your lying eyes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0w1c-gf18

.243 is underestimated by many. Not enough energy.

[JudgeBAC]

Perhaps the .500s are just too big for deer sized animals?

[300savage]

if i read 44 correctly he does not say it is all about energy, but instead some combination of the two, sufficient energy and momentum that gives the best real world results on game. i agree. you can jusst poke a hole through them, or you can poke a hole and create massive tissue damage while doing it. this is also my experiance, the trick is finding that right combination for what your shooting, and what critters your after.

[taco650]

Perhaps the .500s are just too big for deer sized animals?

Probably not but it certainly isn't necessary. My $.02 is shoot the most powerful round you can shoot accurately. Power is an important factor but putting the bullet where it needs to go is the most important.

[Grendel99]

Not to throw gas on the fire, but comparing a 6mm/.243 cal 105 Berger VLD against a cast bullet for energy is about as different as it gets. The Berger VLD is designed to rapidly expand and not exit, dumping 100% of its energy in the animal and creating a massive wound channel. A .45 cal lead bullet at 900 fps will hardly expand at all unless cost soft and/or hollow pointed. Either way, the energy delivery is quite different. But then again, they will both kill efficiently. Obviously the .45 Colt won't be killing Elk at 600 yards, but quite frankly, no one should be shooting big game at that range. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Piedmont]

Perhaps the .500s are just too big for deer sized animals?

It just won't kill them. If you follow this to its logical conclusion the larger calibers just keep getting worse and worse. A 20mm cannon is getting pitiful and true artillery shells release so much clotting agent that the deer won't die. Now add an expanding bullet like a 300 grain JHP to a .45-70 rifle at 1800 fps. and the displacement velocity is so high they always run off. Oh wait......that has a great reputation for in-the-tracks drops of deer. Don't dare use a .58 caliber or larger roundball at rifle velocities, it won't work (unless you listen to the guys that actually use them, then you will hear they are fantastic stoppers).

This all reminds me of one of Ross Seyfried's stories. He had finally gotten to Africa with his .577 NE after reading about it and dreaming of it since boyhood. He had read how tough the Cape buffalo was. His first one was at a trotting buff and it just fell over. Ross turned to his pro hunter in amazement and said something like, "He just fell over." His pro hunter's response was priceless, "Of course he did. You shot him with a bloody cannon."

[44man]

if i read 44 correctly he does not say it is all about energy, but instead some combination of the two, sufficient energy and momentum that gives the best real world results on game. i agree. you can jusst poke a hole through them, or you can poke a hole and create massive tissue damage while doing it. this is also my experiance, the trick is finding that right combination for what your shooting, and what critters your after.

This is it in a nutshell.
I can assure you the wrong boolit in the .500 can spray a deer over the landscape or just poke a hole.
I found the trap about just needing a larger bore and meplat ONLY, it is armchair hunting at it's finest. So is making a gun shoot as fast as possible.
Doesn't matter if you use a 25-20 all the way to an elephant gun, it is the combination for the size animal.

[subsonic]

Before you launch those full wadcutter type projectiles at deer, line up some water jugs and see if they penetrate straight. If they tumble in the water or exit the side of a jug early on, you're not going to like what happens when they hit a deer.

[another gunslinger]

+1 for shooting jugs. If it don't penetrate, it don't kill well. Gotta "show me", eh subsonic?

[subsonic]

+1 for shooting jugs. If it don't penetrate, it don't kill well. Gotta "show me", eh subsonic?

Yes, "Show ME", lol

I speak from experience. What looks like a good idea is not always a good idea.