First time using sawdust

[cbrick]

Question: how hard would it be for me to get together 1000 samples at $25 a pop?

Depends entirely on how patient you are. It'd be very possible that it could take a few years or more to get that many people that would pay to know. Are you willing to be out that much for that long? It would be pretty much a single use, single purpose tool. A foundry and or metals dealer could easily justify the expense using it daily in the normal course of their business.

I have tools that I could easily have lived without, were expensive and in reality get used very little. My bore scope is a perfect example, $800.00 and while I do use it and having it has been an education but do I get $800.00 of use from it? Maybe in a couple hundred more uses. For example, is your bore clean? Wanna bet serious money on that?

That's a lot of money Tim, think carefully that's not an $800.00 bore scope.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That is a "toy" I would love to have. It appears we have enough members queued-up to do four samples. Unless anyone else is interested, I suggest we do #1 and #2 and #3 and a fouth suggested by cbrick. 1,2,3 would be common sequence used by members and would be the most useful. The "west coast sample" would be of interest to me as well. It makes common sense that every place on a sample would have a slightly different composition. That is a given. I still would like to know a little more about what we have here. I'm not concerned that RotoMetals does not utilize a "clean-room" for testing.

Don't get in a twist, I was just reporting what I found out. I'm just thinking that in order to get a good feel for a reduction in contaminates, a sample would have to be measured a few times and averaged, and compared in the same way.
Regardless, the sales rep is a gun enthusiast, and said he would be glad to bring the gun by for a "demonstration". He said he always wanted to learn how to reload, and I explained the awesomeness of the cast lead boolit, so I think I can make it worth his while. LOL!
But dang I would love to have instant access to that gun without having to beg!

Don't mind me, I said I would slap some greenbacks on the barrel, and I will, I just wanted to tell you about another avenue I'm pursuing.
You don't make a rule out of one sample. One sample/test makes a strong theory. I want data that I can say yeah verily, thus sayeth the comprehensive evidence. It's worth a shot.

[jmort]

"Don't get in a twist"

Not sure how we got there, I'm not in a "twist," I'm just a pilgrim seeking answers. More information is more better. I am thankful for everything you have done. If I had the money I would have got me one of those Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t XRF Analyzers yesterday. I think waiting for your demo is a good idea. The demo may make any further testing moot. So far you have saved us a few hundred dollars as it is, not including your time and any chits you used up with your buddy. So no twist, just thankful for all the great members/moderators we have here. God Bless you all.

[MBTcustom]

I'm not suggesting we wait on my demo at all. The way my luck runs, the guy will forget I exist. I'm just saying that in addition to the RotoMetals test, I might be able to get yet another sample from yet another source. I just hope we can build a case on all this data that means something.
That, and I really wish there was a way for me to land one of those do-hickies, for cheap use by booliteers everywhere.

[cbrick]

Ah, a demo of the machine. From your post #139 it sounded like you were ready to buy one and pay for it from boolit casters at $25 a pop, ya probably could if ya live long enough.

Rick

[Glen]

These are some very interesting results, and I wouldn't get downhearted about them at all. While the intent of the experiment was to learn more about the relative merits of various fluxes, there were other things learned instead.

1) the often quoted composition for WW alloy of 6% antimony and 2% tin clearly no longer applies (more like 3% and 1%)
2) these samples are almost certainly "virgin" alloy (i.e. not recycled), and would make very good bullet metal
3) in #8 and #9, I am surprised to see that much sulfur in the starting alloy, and since S forms strong stable compounds with Lead that offer zero benefit to the caster, it's good to see that "standard" fluxing methods are effective at removing it.

[cbrick]

That's interesting Glen but could you explain "strong stable compounds with Lead that offer zero benefit to the caster"? Not knowing anything about that it sounds like strong stable compounds would be a good thing but it offers no benefits? Time for some educatin I think.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Ah, a demo of the machine. From your post #139 it sounded like you were ready to buy one and pay for it from boolit casters at $25 a pop, ya probably could if ya live long enough.

Rick

Hey, I can dream can't I? Im serious, 1000 samples is all it would take to pay for that thing, and then we would have it for all booliteers benefit from now on.
Like I said, I intend to make sure the guy doesn't feel it was a wasted trip, even if I have to reblue a gun for him LOL!

[cbrick]

Ok, I'm going to step up and volunteer Goodsteel to collect the funds and mail the samples off to Roto Metals. Isn't that generous of me?

What say you all?

Rick

[btroj]

Seconded.


And Rick, I think Glen was speaking do lead sulfide, PbS. Very stable. As a compound and not elemental lead it must be viewed as an impurity. Sulfides tend to be very stable compounds, many metals are found in nature as Sulfides.

[MBTcustom]

Ummm, I think I would like to respectfully and gratefully nominate Rick instead. I've got my hands full just taking care of my business, and you know what it's like in my line of work this time of year!
That said, if you can't do it Rick, then I'll step up to the plate no problem.

I got an email from the guy that sells the lead testers, and he said that they would be in my area possibly in the next few weeks, and would be glad to give me a demonstration.
I informed him that I had the perfect sample with which to test the gun on, being samples that were fluxed and not, and I'm extremely curious to see if his gun can detect the impurities or lack thereof. I will be testing other things while I'm at it to see if I can justify financing this doo-dad for my business. It's a jaw dropper on cost, but it's also exceedingly useful for a whole plethora of applications.

[cbrick]

Seems this idea was dropped like a hot potato. Is there still interest?

Don't know if I should be grateful or my feelings hurt that I didn't get a second on Tim's nomination, think I'll settle for grateful.

So where are we on this testing?

Rick

[jsizemore]

Since our source of alloy was 'clean' then it might be that we need to intentionally contaminate it with some zinc and possibly some copper sulfate. We know the sawdust flux removes the sulpher from Pb. Would it work for the zinc and copper also? At our temps it might be a little too hard to get any aluminum in the mix. So, are you up to trying a little more testing? I have some zinc I can send if you don't have any. Maybe a small pack of root killer for the copper sulfate.

I still use a little parafin or dollar store wax when removing clips from the smelting pot before using sawdust and in the casting pot. Once I have clean alloy ingots then sawdust seems to make no difference in the bottom pour pot. If I didn't have parafin/wax then I wouldn't hesitate to use only sawdust during casting or smelting.

[jmort]

I'm still good and interested. If no one minds, I would like to call them and ask if we can get a discount for multiple samples and if so where do the price breaks hit, and how much is the break. Any objections to me calling Roto on Monday? I'll also ask if we can pay them individually in increments.

[Geppetto]

Guess i've pretty much missed this thread until today. With regards to testing a sample with an XRF and getting different readings, with something like a casting, i would fully expect to see some variations from spot to spot. And most of those types of tests are going to be a bit inconsistent in the residual contaminant elements. If you really want to get a good consistent reading of your contaminants, your best bet would be to have a lab perform an ICP-OES wet chem. In that case you are actually dissolving the sample and testing the liquid. This would probably be the best bet for a homogenous testing. However, you're not going to get 9 samples tested for $450.00. I would estimate at least $100 per test or probably a bit more. At work (metallurgical/failure analysis engineer) I would probably quote the test at around $150.00, but we outsource wet chems.

Just wanted to try and give some insight on the testing you are having performed.

Greg

[cbrick]

I'm not too convinced on the sawdust removing sulfur, we have one sample with 4% and totally removed with one sawdust fluxing. We have another sample that was fluxed twice with sawdust and it still has 1.67% sulfur.

A call to Roto Metals could be good explaining the testing being done on CastBoolits (send them the link to this thread if needed), might not be a bad idea to let it slip how much business they get from this site.

Dunno if we should contaminate a sample or do a heads up comparison with the previous tests run on the same sample.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I'll contribute some cash to this, but I'd like to see some "known dirty" samples in the fray. Not zinc, though, we know when we have that and how to deal with it. My principle concern is calcium contamination due to the hazards of dealing with the ash after it absorbs moisture from the air. Aluminum seems to be an issue, too, from the metallic flake in the painted weights. If I don't sawdust-flux that stuff out (and it DOES come out, you can tell by the ash condition after repeated fluxings, and also from the way the alloy casts before and after fluxing), then I have troubles.

I'd like to see just three samples tested: One a wheel weight base with known aluminum and calcium contamination, the same alloy fluxed with paraffin/beeswax/similar, the last fluxed with pine sawdust.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I'm set up to meet with the alloy gun feller next week (still got my fingers crossed). should be interesting.

[cbrick]

I'd like to see just three samples tested: One a wheel weight base with known aluminum and calcium contamination, the same alloy fluxed with paraffin/beeswax/similar, the last fluxed with pine sawdust. Gear

Well, I don't have any more WW or way to know if there is aluminum or calcium contamination in it if I did have some. Are you volunteering to make the samples?

I have the original alloy sent by jsizemore in ingots marked with the sample number. Only the ingots from sample #1 are un-fluxed, about 15 pounds. All the rest has been fluxed with either wax, sawdust or Marvalux.

Rick

[jmort]

"I would fully expect to see some variations from spot to spot"

Of course, every spot would vary, but that does not zero out testing and getting general information.

I would rather not spend $100.00/$150 per test, or more. We are at $59.00 worst case. Dissolving a sample and testing would be nice, but I feel we can get useful information with the XRF gun. I'm thinking we should use some/all of the previous samples and add a couple as suggested if we can swing it. I will call Roto tomorrow. Only discussing the $$$ and discount, nothing more. We can iron out details later. We hopefully can find a "friend" at Roto for future reference.