How to KILL Rust??

[nicholst55]

Any chance we could see a picture of the rig you are trying to stop the rust on? I'm not quite sure what it is, but it sounds interesting.

I'll see if I can sneak my camera into the shop and snap a couple of pix. Cameras aren't allowed without special authorization - never mind that everybody has a camera phone...

ETA: Here's a link to the manufacturer's website. Our fixture looks very similar to the one pictured at the lower left of the page's heading. If you link to their 3-Gun system, it shows a much different version. As I undeerstand it, ours was the only existing .50 BMG version made at the time (last year). We have significantly reworked it here at YPG, but you get the impression. I recommended that they switch the .50 BMG version to either chrome-lined or stainless steel barrels last year, but no action has been taken.

We use the fixture for bullet-impact testing on artillery ammo, among other things.

http://www.bosik.com/3_barrel_gun.php

[nicholst55]

Updated with link to manufacturer's website.

[andremajic]

Tannic acid will bind to the iron oxide and convert it to ferric tannate. It's used by museum personnel to preserve arrows and ancient steel parts as they're uncovered. It's also one of the main ingredients to most anti-rust products, like evaporust.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tannic-Acid-...ht_2659wt_1170

(You could make your own from tea leaves, tree bark, with acetone and a double boiler/distiller, but that seems like a bit of work)

Soak the parts overnight in the tannic acid that's been disolved in distilled water. The finish is fragile, and the deactivated iron will flake off if you brush it with a stiff bristle.

If you wanted to make it more durable for a finish, you would need to add phosphoric acid to the mix, and well as other ingredients to help the ingredients penetrate deeper like wetting agents. Since it's inside your bore, you WANT it to flake off, so I would use some steel wool wrapped around an old worn out brush to knock it off.
You may need to repeat the process if it's got heavy scale to get deeper down, but if it's light just one treatment should work well.

I was thinking of using this with experimentation for rust bluing, but the finish is not durable. But it will really help if you're trying to REMOVE rust.

Using electrolysis will also remove the rust in a non-destructive method. Baking soda and water mix applied as an electrolyte solution with a steel rod wrapped every 4 inches with electrical tape to keep the rod from shorting out. Plug the bore, add solution, energize, wait, and then scrub the rust that deposits on your rod off with a piece of rough steel wool. Repeat until no rust is deposited on your rod. Search for electrolysis rust removal on youtube.
Brownells and midway sell a rust removal system that consists of a battery pack, some wire, and a rod and some "special solution" for 135.00 but I'd rather just use the stuff sitting around my house instead.

Andy

[oldred]

Using electrolysis will also remove the rust in a non-destructive method. Baking soda and water mix applied as an electrolyte solution

All good info, very good info in fact, BUT the electrolysis method uses washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) instead of baking soda (Sodium BI-Carbonate). Backing soda can be used if washing soda is not available for some reason but the washing soda works a LOT better!

[contender1]

Google a product called "rustpissesme off"
A gun engineer developed this stuff.

[nicholst55]

Tannic acid will bind to the iron oxide and convert it to ferric tannate. It's used by museum personnel to preserve arrows and ancient steel parts as they're uncovered. It's also one of the main ingredients to most anti-rust products, like evaporust.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tannic-Acid-...ht_2659wt_1170

(You could make your own from tea leaves, tree bark, with acetone and a double boiler/distiller, but that seems like a bit of work)

Soak the parts overnight in the tannic acid that's been disolved in distilled water. The finish is fragile, and the deactivated iron will flake off if you brush it with a stiff bristle.

If you wanted to make it more durable for a finish, you would need to add phosphoric acid to the mix, and well as other ingredients to help the ingredients penetrate deeper like wetting agents. Since it's inside your bore, you WANT it to flake off, so I would use some steel wool wrapped around an old worn out brush to knock it off.
You may need to repeat the process if it's got heavy scale to get deeper down, but if it's light just one treatment should work well.

I was thinking of using this with experimentation for rust bluing, but the finish is not durable. But it will really help if you're trying to REMOVE rust.

Using electrolysis will also remove the rust in a non-destructive method. Baking soda and water mix applied as an electrolyte solution with a steel rod wrapped every 4 inches with electrical tape to keep the rod from shorting out. Plug the bore, add solution, energize, wait, and then scrub the rust that deposits on your rod off with a piece of rough steel wool. Repeat until no rust is deposited on your rod. Search for electrolysis rust removal on youtube.
Brownells and midway sell a rust removal system that consists of a battery pack, some wire, and a rod and some "special solution" for 135.00 but I'd rather just use the stuff sitting around my house instead.

Andy

I think I'll just stick to the phosphoric acid, rather than mixing a witches brew of stuff that will probably get me in trouble if I get caught.

Google a product called "rustpissesme off"
A gun engineer developed this stuff.

Their web page comes up for me, but it's blank.

[Newboy]

Old red,

You sound like you are knowledgable about the Corrosion-X, but I have used it a lot in the past on corroded electrical and electronic components, and have found that it removes the oxidation, not just cover it with oil.

[contender1]

****. I know the engineer and I have used their stuff.

Ok, here is where you can contact them;
Targething Inc
Garrettsville Oh.
440-548-2442
Speak to Amanda.

They have a two part easy to use solution that is designed to "remove corrosion damage to chambers."

If you have a bit of trouble getting to Amanda,, her father has been in & out of the hospital lately. Have patience.

[oldred]

Old red,

You sound like you are knowledgable about the Corrosion-X, but I have used it a lot in the past on corroded electrical and electronic components, and have found that it removes the oxidation, not just cover it with oil.

That's just the solvents at work on the Copper and Aluminum oxidation (like contact cleaners), Corrosion-X is good stuff for what it is however it's effect on iron oxide is to loosen the fully oxidized iron (red rust) with solvents and wick the oils into the remaining rust to leave a layer of oils which act like any other oil at smothering the rust. This works fine as long as the oils remain and in most cases they will remain a very long time unless removed with more solvent or exposure to conditions that erode them from the surface, certainly they would not remain effective inside a gun bore such as the situation the OP has.



Consider this, if light rusting has started to appear on a firearm, and I think probably most of us have had to deal with this, a light rubbing with steel wool and your favorite oil/solvent concoction will remove the VISIBLE rust. Then as long as the surface is kept oiled, like we usually do on our firearms (after all who doesn't?) then the rust is not likely to return but that does not necessarily mean it has been eliminated. If we then either neglect the gun and allow the the oily surface to wear off or if we inadvertently wipe it off with solvent the the very first place rust is going to reappear is where it had been treated before! Don't misunderstand, I am not knocking the products and they, along with most of the other oil suggestions, are really good at preventing rust from starting or smothering rust that may already exist but they do not "kill" or permanently stop the rust by removing and/or rendering inert the still active part of the oxidizing iron. Unless the active part is removed, not just the visible red rust we can see, the rust is still lurking under that oily layer and will become active again if it is allowed to come into contact with oxygen which it will do if the oily layer is compromised.

[Janoosh]

Thanks Oldred..lots of great info there.....now to the point....shouldn't what caused the rust in the first place be addressed? Coating over the rust problem is just burying the initial cause...isn't it?..

[gwpercle]

Good old fashion Navel Jelly will remove and kill rust but it also removes blue , most paints and plastics. But it will do the job. Hardware stores usually carry it. Good luck.

Gary

[oldred]

Thanks Oldred..lots of great info there.....now to the point....shouldn't what caused the rust in the first place be addressed? Coating over the rust problem is just burying the initial cause...isn't it?..

Well that's what I have been trying to say, don't just cover up the problem and keep it at bay eliminate it instead! That's what Phosphoric acid will do, eliminate both the reddish brown loose rust (actually the left over residue from the rusting process) and halt the actual rusting process going on in the still active part of the metal under the rust we can see. Of course what caused the rust in the first place needs to be dealt with also but this is usually due to neglect of proper cleaning/oiling and allowing unprotected metal to come into contact with coorsive agents, be it corrosive loading components, salts from handling or just plain old moisture.


Of course Phosphoric acid products CANNOT be used on a blued surface as they will instantly remove any bluing they come in contact with! If the rust is light enough to remove with fine steel wool or just by brushing then oils/solvents and vigorous scrubbing can usually solve the problem as long as the necessary scrubbing is not so severe as to ruin the bluing, when light rust is removed in this manner it becomes even more important to maintain the oily surface in the rusted area than it will for undamaged areas. If the rust is so severe as to require heavy abrasion or pits are involved then drastic measures are called for anyway but my point all along has been to not confuse holding rust at bay by smothering it with oil and actually eliminating it by chemical means.

[oldred]

Good old fashion Navel Jelly will remove and kill rust but it also removes blue , most paints and plastics. But it will do the job. Hardware stores usually carry it. Good luck.

Gary

Good old fashioned Navel Jelly does indeed work like a charm and has done so for many years! Navel Jelly is Phosphoric acid in a gelled form so that it will cling to surfaces without running off and I have used this stuff to remove some very heavy rust on tractor parts, it's one of those long used Phosphoric acid products I mentioned at the beginning of this discussion.



A hint for better results when using Navel Jelly on heavy rust, apply a thick coat then cover it with plastic sheeting like a trash bag or even food wrap. This will keep it from drying out so fast and you definitely don't want to allow it dry on the surface as this will leave a coating that will be a real PITA to remove!

[historicfirearms]

Thanks nicholst55 for the link, interesting job you have.
I'm an airplane pilot and my boss swears by corrosion-x. He uses it in all the airplanes he works on as a corrosion preventative. During the 100 hour inspections on my work plane, he will spray the stuff into the empanage, wing spars, etc. The smell is a little overpowering for the first few flights, especially when it's hot out.

[oldred]

Fellas Corrosion-X is nothing but Mineral oil and solvents, the solvents evaporate (some quickly and some take a much longer time) but in the end what is left is Mineral oil. The stuff works pretty good at dissolving corrosion from Copper, Aluminum or even brass but spray some on rusty iron and you can wait until the cows come home and the rust will not disappear! As far as a preventive it works and works well but so does motor oil, the motor oil is a lot messier however. Just like motor oil if the Corrosion-X is removed later the rust will become active again.

[gcollins]

Hi All,
First off I only read about half the post's, so if someone has already posted it, I am sorry!
Here is what I use, and let me say right off, I know Jack $$$$ ! I get a box of baking soda (I keep on hand all the time) I use any kind of clear glass 1/2-1 pint size jar ect. Fill the jar 2/3 full of distilled water and start adding the baking soda until you get a light milky color. ( This is your kill solution) you need to be care full with the next solution Cider Vinegar, Get 3 cleaning rods out, on one of them put a barrel bush on (I use a cordless drill on the handle end that has the brush on it) on another put the biggest swab that you can force down the barrel, and on the last put on the right size swab.
Here we go, put some of the cider vinegar into another size container like you have your kill in!
I take my rod that will go down the barrel with a lite resistance and dip it in the vinegar and swab the barrel hoping you are getting the inside soaked good and none on the outside, after about 5 mins. Next I take the rod that has a brush on one end and a electric drill on the other. Start working up and down the barrel, Then using the kill swab that you have soaked will the baking soda milk, and kill the vinegar solution, and do a clean up GOOD CEAN UP and then inspect it.
With out having the problem in front of me, all I can say is, maybe you have something around that you can use as a test item, and play with it! Don't do this unless you have tried it on a old junk barrel, or a small pipe that has rust and pitting in it.
What works for some, might not for others!
G

[oldred]

Yes that will work and the kill solution will neutralize any acids left on the surface, as the old saw goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat" (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean???) however a true rust remover solution based on the Phosphoric acid will not only work faster it does not need the follow up neutralizer and it leaves that rust deterring coating that the Vinegar (which contains Acetic acid) does not. That is not to say that your method does not work and I'm sure it does just as Coca-Cola has been used in years past to remove light rust from chrome car bumpers, it's the Phosphoric acid in the cola that does the trick and the Acetic acid in the Vinegar.

[oldred]

Since the baking soda solution was mentioned (good suggestion BTW) I am going to get slightly off topic here to comment on another common firearm problem relating to rust and that's cold blue solutions. I think most who have used these solutions have been plagued with the tendency to quickly rust unless the solution is washed off after bluing, if just wiped and oiled rust is almost sure to follow in short order, and even when rust does not occur the color changes in a couple of days if not in just a few hours! Years ago I had this problem when I attempted to blue a barrel and lock on a ML so I reasoned that the rusting must be caused by left over acids and a base solution such as baking soda might solve the problem, it did just that and I was also pleasantly surprised to find the color holds MUCH better if this is done within minutes of using these cold blue concoctions. I have often wondered why the manufacturers don't make this suggestion in their product use instructions since it makes a noticeable difference in how well this stuff works but most of all it eliminates the follow up rusting that often occurs if the gun parts are just treated with the bluing and then simply oiled as most instructions suggest.

[waksupi]

Since the baking soda solution was mentioned (good suggestion BTW) I am going to get slightly off topic here to comment on another common firearm problem relating to rust and that's cold blue solutions. I think most who have used these solutions have been plagued with the tendency to quickly rust unless the solution is washed off after bluing, if just wiped and oiled rust is almost sure to follow in short order, and even when rust does not occur the color changes in a couple of days if not in just a few hours! Years ago I had this problem when I attempted to blue a barrel and lock on a ML so I reasoned that the rusting must be caused by left over acids and a base solution such as baking soda might solve the problem, it did just that and I was also pleasantly surprised to find the color holds MUCH better if this is done within minutes of using these cold blue concoctions. I have often wondered why the manufacturers don't make this suggestion in their product use instructions since it makes a noticeable difference in how well this stuff works but most of all it eliminates the follow up rusting that often occurs if the gun parts are just treated with the bluing and then simply oiled as most instructions suggest.

I've used cold blues, and can't think of any that didn't specify to wash with clean water after application.
One of my favorite uses is for French Grey color. I apply the cold blue, then buff it back with 0000 steel wool.

[oldred]

I've used cold blues, and can't think of any that didn't specify to wash with clean water after application.
One of my favorite uses is for French Grey color. I apply the cold blue, then buff it back with 0000 steel wool.

Yes they all do, or at least the one's I've seen say to wash with water but I am talking about washing with a water/baking soda solution. My theory, and it's just that but it sure seems to work, is that just washing with water does not go far enough and the soda neutralizes any acids they may have etched into the surface. Plus it seems to "fix" the color at whatever it is at the time of application, the color holdout seemed to me to be much better after the soda treatment but I have no explanation of why this would be so if in fact it is. In any case I had a lot better long term results when the cold blue was rinsed with the soda solution as opposed to just plain or soapy water.