Question About my First Powder Charge in my New Shiloh Sharps

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just loaded three cartridges for my new .45-70, my cast 457125 cast 20:1 SPG .459", bore mics just over .4595".

I dropped 60 gr of FFg Goex but found it nearly fills the case. I thought I read somewhere that the Black Powder should only be compressed .1". Using Walters wads .060"

The Shiloh Sharps COL with the 457125 is 2.62". This brings the base of the seated 525 gr boolit .78" down measured from the case mouth. If I drop a charge of FFg to a level .010" below the base of the boolit, that means such a powder charge would be 38 grains.

Did I misunderstand this .10 compressing of Black Powder and should I just stick with 60 gr?

[littlejack]

SJH:
Your load of 60 grains of FFg, is too light. I load and shoot the same boolit you cast. I drop in 70 grains of your Goex FFg, and set a .060 card wad on top. Then compress with a compression die and seat that boolit out far enough to touch the lands.
Just make sure you only compress the powder and opw to match the depth of seating your boolit.
Goex powder burns more consistently when compressed. You should not have any trouble at all getting 70 grains of black in your cases. You do not have to worry about blowing up your rifle.
Regards
Jack

[nhrifle]

That stuff is good to compress as far as you want unless you squeeze it so much that the case balloons and won't chamber. I did that once and luckily it was an easy fix. You will not over pressure your rifle with black powder, just make sure there is no air space.

[bigted]

didn't say what the case is ...

Winchester cases typically hold more powder then the others.
Remington cases in my trials hold the least but are pretty close with the starline cases.

as is mentioned ... no worry about an overload in blackpowder. also the GOEX will withstand compression rite up to the point that it is pushed into a solid instead of powder ... BUT ... do ALL your compression with a steel stem in your die and NEVER compress the powder charge with your boolit.

from 65 to 74 grains will give you the best overall performance with this powder... in a 45-70 case anyway.

have a fun time smoking it up the first time.

[huntrick64]

Just so you have some detail, I am using Starline cases and put in 72.5 grains weighed KIK 2F. I add a .030 vegie wad and compress that down with a compression die to the exact depth where the base of my bullet needs to be so that it just touches the lands. That ends up being .250" compression for the best groups with this load in MY rifle (YMMV). I am using a 540 grain BACO Money bullet. When seated where it touches the lands in my rifle, I have the last grease groove totally exposed and most of the band between it and the next grease groove is also exposed.

What I do is first is find the exact depth in the case where your bullet base will be if the bullet is just touching the lands. Then charge a bunch of cases starting at 68 grains (say 10-12 each) going in 1 grain increments up to 73 grains. Put on my .030 wad and compress all of these cases to that exact depth you determined earlier. This is how you achieve increased compression of the powder all while keeping your bullet at the same location in your case. Shoot these loads to find the best one, then if your really anal, take your two best loads and make up some more loads between those two loads, but this time use 1/2 grain loads. So if your best loads were 70 grains and 71 grains you might want to load up 70.0, 70.5, and 71.0 and test them. Then you can move on to test a bunch of the other variables one-at-a-time (like seating depth, primer brand, over primer wads, lube, neck tension, bullet alloy, bullet style, and on and on and on).

Good luck and keep us posted.

Follow their advice above and get that powder at least up into the

[country gent]

What does your bore measure? The nose on 457125 is bore riding. on my sample here the drivig section measures .640 and some of that should be able to be outside the case mouth. Is the nose section at some point larger than the bore causing this seating depth? Check out the nose to bore relationship as it may be part of the issue. I load 67 grns under this bullet with a .125 grn grease cookie under it. My 34" barrel needs a little extra lube. Shoos great out to 500 yds.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm using Starline cases. Good advice, thanks guys. Especially the note from bigted to compress the load with a steel stem and not the boolit.

In Mike Ventrino's book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West he notes 60 gr of Goex FFg with the 457125.

Today is the day I made smoke.

[WARD O]

Are you using a long drop tube to drop the powder into the case - It will settle it quite a bit before you compress to the needed depth.

[montana_charlie]

I thought I read somewhere that the Black Powder should only be compressed .1".

When you 'read something somewhere' that you might use later to actually determine how to load a cartridge, it's best to keep a record of exactly what it said, and where you read it.
Then, you can go back to verify 'what you think you know' before letting a faulty memory lead you in a wrong direction.

I am guessing that it said something like, "Don't compress more than a tenth of an inch when using the bullet."

Light compressiuon (like above) can be done with a bullet, but only Swiss powder is commonly loaded with so little compression.

CM

[ColColt]

In Mike Ventrino's book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West he notes 60 gr of Goex FFg with the 457125.

If you'll notice he also says Garbe uses a 68 gr charge of the same powder with that bullet. It depends on the rifle.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Problems at the loading bench, haven't made it to the range yet. It seems I've got a rifle with a tight chamber, an H&I die slightly oversized, thick Starline brass and am attempting to seat 525 gr boolits. All in all, I am unable to combine the components for success. I picked up a few Winchester brass along the way and have successfully loaded 4 rounds that chamber boolits sized with my H&I die marked .457" which is re-sizing to .459". I am crimping using the sizer die.

I wish I had cast a bunch of 405 gr boolits with my other mold, I would probably be able to make more cartridges to shoot with it today. I'm thinking I need to order Winchester brass for my 525 gr boolits. I'll probably buy new H&I dies fresh from the factory too.

[montana_charlie]

Problems at the loading bench, haven't made it to the range yet. It seems I've got a rifle with a tight chamber, an H&I die slightly oversized, thick Starline brass and am attempting to seat 525 gr boolits.

Pull the depriming punch from your full length resizing die.
Back the die up out of the press eight or ten turns.
Run the ram, with a loaded cartridge, up into the die.
Screw the die down until it makes contact with the case/bullet.
Drop the ram a little and screw the die in another full turn.
Raise the ram to full extension, then try that cartridge in your chamber.

Keep adjusting the die deeper in the press until the cartridge chambers ... or you run out of adjustment.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Problems at the loading bench, haven't made it to the range yet. It seems I've got a rifle with a tight chamber, an H&I die slightly oversized, thick Starline brass and am attempting to seat 525 gr boolits. All in all, I am unable to combine the components for success. I picked up a few Winchester brass along the way and have successfully loaded 4 rounds that chamber boolits sized with my H&I die marked .457" which is re-sizing to .459". I am crimping using the sizer die.

I wish I had cast a bunch of 405 gr boolits with my other mold, I would probably be able to make more cartridges to shoot with it today. I'm thinking I need to order Winchester brass for my 525 gr boolits. I'll probably buy new H&I dies fresh from the factory too.

Seat that bullet over the top of 70 grs of powder with a .030 wad compressed enough to let the bullet seat to the driving band. Don't crimp any more than it takes to remove the flare from the case mouth.

[ColColt]

One thing that may help is whenever I get Starline brass the first that that I do is treat them to the annealing process. They'll tell you to do that, basically, on their website,if you're shooting cast bullets. It softens the case mouth and I've had less trouble seating bullets.

"Our .45-70 brass has been tested at elevated pressures suitable for Magnum Heavy Hunting Loads in adequate gun systems. When loading with black powder, annealing of mouth may be necessary to allow case to properly seal chamber due to lower pressures generated by these loads. Our case is produced very strong to withstand high pressure loads associated with smokeless hunting loads and since the only way to make brass harder is to work the material our only option is to leave them stiffer so the customers can anneal for specific application. See annealing procedure in Commonly Asked Questions, section #4."

https://www.starlinebrass.com/order-.../all-cases.cfm

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I am unable to chamber a 459125 seated in a Starline brass in my new Shiloh Sharps. The chamber does accept Winchester brass with this boolit only after using the re-sizer die as a seater die following the steps as spelled out by Montana Charlie. Using the crimping die just enough to take the flare out of the case mouth still leaves me with a cartridge that will not chamber.

I don't think annealing the brass will affect what I see as the issue, the thickness of the brass. I believe the Starline brass will work with the 405 gr boolits when I get them cast up and sized.

Just got back from the range, no accuracy to report, adjusted the sights. Now I have to go to work.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

457125 not 459125. I'm in a hurry to get to work

[Lead pot]

There is no set amount of compression for any powder that will give the same accuracy. You have to find what compression the load gets its accuracy with. Then when you find that point changing the bullet heavy or light longer or shorter chances are you will change the powder load and compression again.
I find compressing powder to the point where it starts to smash the granules is about as far as you want to go in most cases not all but most to hold consistent ES's and SD's.

The Lyman 457-125 has a long bore riding section. I had to send one mould back because that mould would drop a bullet that was .4508" too wide in diameter for the .450" bore the Shiloh has that made it a hard push to chamber the round.
I would take a bullet not loaded and see if it will fit in the muzzle, if it does take a round that will not seat in the chamber and see how it fits the muzzle. If it does then I would check out the case to see if an empty case will chamber. If it won’t run it through the full length sizing die all the way till the shell holder makes contact with the sizing die. Chamber the empty case to see if it chambers. If it does your problem is the way you’re loading.
Is the bullet seated deep enough so the first driving band does not seat too tight in the chamber end? Are you seating the bullet deeper than the powder is compressed? If this is the case when you seat the bullet in the case on top of the powder charge that is not deep enough in the case you will deform the bore riding section of the 125 bullet and make it larger than the bore is.

[montana_charlie]

I believe the Starline brass will work with the 405 gr boolits when I get them cast up and sized.

If the 500 grain buillet will chamber when loaded in Winchester brass, it will chamber in any brand of brass.
But, you will need to size the bullet diameter down before seating it in the Starline cases.

A 405 grain bullet, if it has a .459" diameter, will give you the same problem you have now.

If you really want to know what you are working with, take some measurements.

First, find out what the diameter of your chamber mouth is. (A fired case will be close.)

Second, measure the thickness of the neck wall on the Winchester and the Starline cases.
(Take enough measurements to get a well-rounded average for each brand.

Then, measure the bullets (405 and 500 grainers) to find their diameters.
(Before sizing in your lubrisizer, and after sizing.)

With accuratre numbers and some clear thinking, a calculator should enable you to predict what will fit ... and what won't fit.

CM

[Gunlaker]

You might also want to measure the diameter of the loaded round at the case mouth. If you are roll crimping it's easy to get a bit of a bulge there. Have you tried the minimum possible amount of belling the case mouth followed by no crimp? Shiloh's have a tighter chamber than some of the other brands and I think that's a good thing.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Shiloh's chamber at the case mouth is .481". If your loaded round is any larger than .481" at the case mouth it will not chamber.

If your brass case eck wall is .011" that will leave you enough room to load a .459" bullet.