How I turned a perfectly good revolver into a giant paper weight

[Char-Gar]

As luck would have it, I ran across this little pic and article in the April 56 issue of American Rifleman. Misfire was Mr. Lang"s story, which I don't believe, as earlier USGI FMJ ammo (38 Special) had a habit of sticking bullets in barrels. This is the reason the military went with shorter and lighter FMJ bullets in their 38 Special ammo.

This just illustrates how easy it is to stick jacketed bullets in handgun barrels with low pressure ammo. Mr. Lang qualifies for a "Dumb ***" award, although some what belated. Jeeze, he didn't know anything was wrong, until he couldn't see the front sight!

I don't think even Tim could fix the barrel on this S&W M&P/Victory Model.

[41mag]

I can honestly say I have stuck three bullets in different firearms in 40 something years of loading. However, after each one I pulled the bolt, the slide or rolled the cylinder out for inspection.

One of them was a .270 which I missed a powder charge on, my fault totally, no argument there.

The next was in a GP-100 .357, powder again, but similar to your case I had the charge, but not enough of it. I thought had somehow set my measure up to throw a lighter charge than it was supposed to have. I wasn't sure if i missed the weight on the scale misreading it or what. None the less I pulled 99 out of 100 rounds just to be sure. Turns out it must have been one of around 8 loads which were the last ones as the hopper was getting close to being empty. Every other round weighed exactly what it should have. But I learned from this and haven't let it happen since.

Last one happened this past Labor Day. Loaded some 45 ACP loads, beginning with the start load and working up in .2 increments with several different powders. Third box of test loads first round. Chambered, aimed, and squeezed the trigger, and pop, the slide threw out the case, but failed to fully chamber the next round. I bumped the slide and it close fully. First thought was I HAD been running some pretty dirty loads. Next thought was "these are also pretty light loads", but like in your case, no hole in the target. Last thought drop the mag, empty the chamber and pull the barrel.

What I found was the previous bullet stuck about an inch or so past the chamber. Plenty of room for the next round to fit and fire properly. I was however correct though the chamber was full of soot and powder residue as well. That explained why the next round didn't allow the slide to return to battery. There again another lesson learned, not only about the dirty chamber and barrel but also about the light weight starting charges listed in manuals. From a clean barrel and chamber it would have probably fire just fine, but with the added crud from previous loads it simply came to a screeching halt.

Like mentioned several times above, when things don't appear as they should, this is always the time to cease and desist until you know for a fact why. When your messing with pressures of 20K and possibly higher at times, and are in a position that your possibly not the only one who might get hurt from it, then you can understand where Char is coming from.

I somewhat had a similar upbringing. My pop let me start helping him load our ammo when I was but 8yrs old. He was of course right there watching every step I made. We loaded for several different rifles, and a couple of handguns, and as the years went by his attention to me dwindled as he knew I had enough knots on my head I was in good shape. Growing up, I was always out at ranges, or in hunting camps with folks many years my senior, and was told on many occasions how impressed they were with not my handling of firearms but also my knowledge of the ammo for them and how well I shot for my age. I can also say that pop never actually knocked knots on my head, well maybe one or two but they were well deserved along with a couple of swift boots up the rear. He could however crush my feelings with just a hard stern look as I knew it meant I had let him down.

As for the stuck bullets, all have come since he has passed, but I guarantee I would have sported another couple of knots had he been here. He was just that sort of man.

[DrCaveman]

Wow. I guess it is one of those things in life, where the big guy upstairs gives you one freebie with major screwups that could potentially kill you. Do it twice, and he aint gonna be so tolerant

Learn learn learn, and remember the big mistakes. A wiser man than me told me: "an expert is someone who has made every mistake that can be made, and learned from each of them"

[220]

It was alarming to read of other posters nonchalantly stating they've had a smaller number of stuck bullets too. If it happens once, that should be the last time it occurs.

As I tried to point out it isn't just a reload problem, seems to be a fairly common with factory ammo in 17HMR.
I also know of a 243 that was destroyed with factory ammo.
A squib on its own isn't dangerous it is what the shooter does after firing the squib that leads to problems.

I don't know about everyone else but I think the are a fact of life if you shoot enough ammo. My reload count would be north of 100,000rds and I've had a few. The genuine squibs I can count on one hand but dealing with them correctly is the key to safety.
I had one a few years ago when I was shooting a ISSF competition overseas. Well placed to win a medal and on the first shot of my last series in the dualing stage of centrefire pop. Wasn't sure if it had left the barrel or not, if it had I wouldn't have been able to claim a malfunction and dropped the entire 5 shot series. It hadn't so was classed as a valid malfunction and I was allowed to reshoot the series but I value my safety more than any medal or trophy so was quite prepaired to finish last in order to confirm 100% the gun was safe to continue with.

I did have a number of not true squibs but loads that were under powered compared to what they should have been in a batch I reloaded a couple of years ago.
Operator error 100%, I deprimed then tumbled the cases and loaded without checking every flash hole, the new tumbling media was just the right size to get stuck in the odd flash hole.

[Animal]

41 mag...

There is no amount of value that can replace the experience of a father educating his son. Those are also the best times that a son can reflect on. When I screwed up, my dad would carry me out to Camp Darby, Fort Benning and have me fill sandbags for a day or more. I hated it at the time, but when I look back those were also the best of times.

[Animal]

DrCaveman... You hit the nail on the head. Experience is always the best teacher. I've learned more from my screw ups than I have my successes.

[Animal]

220, I had no idea that a squib was this common. Most of the info I've read about it since then would have you believe that factory ammo is squib proof.

[Animal]

I'll add that this thread has been very helpful. I've gotten a lot of good insight about squibs, how to avoid them and how to recognize when you have experienced one. I've really enjoyed reloading and I plan to do plenty more of it along with boolit casting. Fortunately, now I have more experience behind my belt from my own screw up and some great information I've gotten from this thread. I'll do what I can to render this gun safe, look into a set of dies so that I can begin loading my Ruger and carry on. Thanks,

Austin

[35remington]

Animal, what you really should be taking away from this is that minimum loads using jacketed bullets are to be avoided in revolvers. Especially in relatively long cases like the 357. If the powder piles up near the bullet rather than the primer the velocities can and will be lower than if the powder is near the primer.....and this contributes to the problem.

It may not have been a squib in the sense that it was a partial charge of powder. It was simply incorrect load selection. Don't pick extra light charges even if they are loading manual minimums if jacketed bullets are used. Lead bullets will exit the barrel with light charges in instances where jacketed bullets will not.

Jacketed bullets are a foolish selection with light charges.

Of course the best and most expensive and hazardous way of finding out is......the hard way.

A large cylinder/barrel gap or large cylinder throats will worsen the "barrel sticking" effect as well as they allow more gas leakage on firing and less velocity.

[220]

220, I had no idea that a squib was this common. Most of the info I've read about it since then would have you believe that factory ammo is squib proof.

I wouldn't say they are common in most factory ammo but they have been with the 17HMR, not a squib in the sense that there is no powder in the case but the end result is the same. A projectile stuck part way down the barrel.
Seems to be related to the case neck splitting issues the HMR has, best explaination I have heard is the powder sucks in moisture be it from the air a sweaty pocket etc and this results in powder degradation and incomplete or little powder burn when the round is fired.
I know with the one I had and a couple of others I've seen picture of, the powder has been unburnt and clumped together.
The 243 incident was factory loads that exceeded max OAL, a round was chambered, not fired and ejected leaving the projectile jambed in the lands the shooter never noticed a forced the next round home and pulled the trigger.

[smokeywolf]

Still anxious to hear what the actual weighed powder charge was in that batch of cartridges.

smokeywolf

[MBTcustom]

Still anxious to hear what the actual weighed powder charge was in that batch of cartridges.

smokeywolf

Indeed! Because that is an actual load from Hodgdons websight. 158gr XTP with 3.7gr PB. Should have produced 747 fps and 18800psi
In comparison, they show a lesser load for cast lead boolits being 3.5gr of PB which would have produced 840fps and 12200 psi
I don't see Hodgdon putting out bad load data, and I don't see how a couple thou smaller bore could grab a bullet going 750fps.
You said you loaded 49 rounds. Why not pull the very next ones and see what the weight is?
I would be doing that about 2 seconds after I yanked the front door open. What am I missing?

[Char-Gar]

Guys, there is no great mystery here, it is history repeating itself. During ww2 the US used 158 grain FMJ ammo at 850 fps. At speeds less than this bullets could stick in the barrel. Bullets did stick in worn guns that lost pressure through the barrel/cylinder gap. The US went to a 130 grain bullet to reduce pressure through the lighter bullet with a shorter bearing surface.

Sticking a 158 grain jacketed bullet at 750 fps should be very easy to do. All it takes is a handgun slightly out of spec as those loads are right on the cusp of sticking anyway.

Lee didn't stick any bullets in their test gun, but forgot the lesson of history or never knew it in the first place. To be certain you don't stick such bullets, you will have to load them to +P pressure or 100 to 150 GPS faster. You can run lighter JHP bullets slower.

With a little knowledge of the history of fmj round in the 38 Special, this incident is easy to understand.

[MBTcustom]

Wow, you learn something new everyday. I have fired thousands of 38 special's through my model 19 at much less pressure than this, and I never stuck one. In fact, they punched nice holes in the target 30 yards down range. Course, I wasn't using PB, I was using Unique.
I'm glad this thread was posted! Very informative.
Still, I would be very much obliged if Animal could double check those loads. If they are actually what they were supposed to be, then color me better informed!

[500MAG]

This is why I carry a push rod to the range with me. Anytime I don't get, what I call an acceptable recoil, I check the barrel with the rod. My paranoia and OCD help with this. Lol.

[Animal]

I'm off tomorrow guys. I promise I will pull bullets and weigh charges. I'd rather do it when I have the house to myself, no kid or wife and a couple of consecutive hours alone after my coffee.

[mozeppa]

been thinking about how to remove the slugs from the barrel...and i havent read all the replies so i may be duplicating someone elses idea.

get a piece of brass tubing that closely (but loosely) fits the bore.
insert tube so that it touches the first slug.

get a drill bit that closely fits inside the brass tube and insert it into the brass tube.
this will insulate the bit from the barrel bore.
...using a varible speed drill drill slowly out each slug.

as the drill bit advances....so advance the tube.

stop! and check the brass tube every so often to make sure that theres no damage to the tube by the bit...
or worse damage to the bore. check the shavings with a clean magnet. to see what sticks.

lead copper and brass won't stick....but the steel bore will if you get into it. good luck.

[Char-Gar]

I have yet to load my first jacketed bullet of any kind in any handgun round. When I started loading and shooting handguns, the only jacketed bullets around were RN FMJ stuff for autopistols and a "metal piercing" round for the .357 Magnum and I never laid eyes on that critter. Everybody loaded cast bullets even in the various autoloaders. JHP bullets were still years away.

I think I have about a million rounds of cast bullets loaded and fired in handguns, and only had one boo-boo. I loaded a 44 Special round with a bullet, a primer but no powder. My son fired it and the bullet stuck in the forcing cone with the back half still in the cylinder. He could not rotate the cylinder and brought it to me to find out why. I took a rod, and knocked the bullet back into the cylinder and removed it, the empty case and the other rounds. I then took the rest of the ammo home and broke it down. I found one more without powder, but the rest were fully charge.

I make a religion of checking each case for the correct powder charge before seating the bullets. I guess even these most religious among us can lapse. I missed two out of two hundred. Never did it before, and have never done it since, but I did it that time.

The first generation or two JHP bullets didn't work or worked within a very narrow range of velocity. It took Lee Jurris to come along with Super-Vel to make JHP work. It worked so well that Super-Vel took command of the Law Enforcement market. The major ammo companies cloned his work and ganged up to undersell him and put him out of business, which they did. But the police and self defense world owe Lee a big debt of gratitude for what he started, saved many lives. Lee is still alive, kicking and living in a small town in New Mexico. He still shoots, but is fighting a battle with prostate cancer. He is a tough old bird and my money is on him to win.

Most handgun shooters grew up with jacketed bullets and didn't see their evolution and don't know their limitations. They are very different critters than lead bullets. Lead can be pushed much slower and still exit the barrel without problems. It is never a good idea to use jacketed bullets for low pressure/velocity target loads. All it takes is tight bore to increase resistance or a large b/c gap to bleed off some pressure and you have what Animal experienced. When you run 38 cal 150-160 grain jacketed bullets at less than +P pressure, you are always flirting with a stuck bullet. It is like shooting High Base shotshells in old Damascus barrels. It works just fine, until that one shot when it doesn't.

I am curious as well, to see what Animal finds where he breaks down the rounds. I suspect he will find just what he thought he put there. But we won't know until he does the deed and reports back.

As an aside I am a fossil when it comes to handgun powder. 99.9% of my handgun loads have used Bullseye, Unique or 2400. The other .1% have had AA5 or AA9, both good powders. Well there was a little 231 as well, to tell the truth, but not much...not much. Not so much as to PO the Bullseye god.

I read one time where King Solomon's problems all came from his "lusting after foreign women". He took them into his home and they brought their alien gods and all kinds of problems. I think that is what happens where you start messing with handgun powders that didn't bear the original name of Hercules Powder Company. When you do so, you are laying down some really bad Karma.

[Mack Heath]

Very interesting thread. One thing I have only seen addressed in passing is the barrel/cylinder (b/c) issue. There are b/c gaps and then there are B/C gaps. A gun with a tight b/c gap will tolerate lighter loads than one that is worn. When Animal finally gets his gun cleared, he should measure the b/c gap. With large barrel/cylinder gaps you need more gas volume to give the bullet time to get out the barrel before the pressure drops. Short barreled guns are more tolerant than long barreled guns of large b/c gaps. A load that works in a snubby with a large b/c gap will wind up a squib in a 6" barreled gun with the same b/c gap.

If his Taurus is on the large size that could well be the reason that a workeable load for most guns failed to work in his.

[Char-Gar]

Very interesting thread. One thing I have only seen addressed in passing is the barrel/cylinder (b/c) issue. There are b/c gaps and then there are B/C gaps. A gun with a tight b/c gap will tolerate lighter loads than one that is worn. When Animal finally gets his gun cleared, he should measure the b/c gap. With large barrel/cylinder gaps you need more gas volume to give the bullet time to get out the barrel before the pressure drops. Short barreled guns are more tolerant than long barreled guns of large b/c gaps. A load that works in a snubby with a large b/c gap will wind up a squib in a 6" barreled gun with the same b/c gap.

If his Taurus is on the large size that could well be the reason that a workeable load for most guns failed to work in his.

Stand behind and to the side of somebody as they shoot a revolver at night and see how much fire shoots out of the b/c gap and you will realize how much gas goes out. The bigger the gap he more the gas loss. It doesn't take the b/c gap to be much out of spec before performance starts to suffer.

The WWII 158 grain FMJ ammo was loaded to what would now be +P pressure and in short order it turned those vintage Smith and Wesson K frames into rattling wrecks with increasing b/c gaps. With increasing pressure going out the gap, the amount left to shove the bullet out the barrel dropped to the sticking point.

Animal's Taurus may have started life with a large b/c gap, I have seen revolvers come factory fresh out of spec that way. I sent several new Smith and Wessons back to the factory for a fix back around the early 80's.

The larger the gap the greater the performance loss and it also can result in diminished accuracy due to alignment issues.

This is more Sixgun 101 stuff.