Ranch Dog TLC225-165-RF in 30-06

[Single Shot]

This is the Ranch Dog 30 caliber tumble lubed gas checked 165 grain Flat Nose bullet.

I know about "THE LOAD"*

The Load article mentions that up to 15 grains of Red dot can be used.* But the load is for any normal bullet for this caliber.* This would include bullets heaver than a 165 grain bullet.** I know from reloading experience as the bullet weight goes down for the same cartridge and powder, the powder charge maximum does increase.

Recently a friend mentioned that he is using 30-06 Lee 309170GC 18gr Red Dot approx 1700 fps load.

I forgot to ask what rifle he is using.* I have a K98 that was originally made in 30-06.

Has anybody used a 19 grain load of Red Dot with a 165 grain bullet?* My friend thinks he originally saw the data on one of the cast bullet sites.* I did a search and could not find it.

I did contact Alliant, but they replied that they have not tested Red Dot for this use but the did refer me to "THE LOAD"*

I do have Unique data for this bullet but I am out of Unique and have 4 pounds of Red Dot.* In the current market, Unique is sold out every where I have looked.

[RickinTN]

Lyman's 47th shows data with both a 169 and a 170 cast. The top load with both and Red Dot is 13.5 grains generating pressures in the 32,000 to 35,000 cup range and velocities in the 1,600 fps range. Keep in mind Red Dot is a fast pistol/shotgun powder and builds pressure quickly with small increases in powder charge. A 165 grain bullet is only 4 or 5 grains lighter than the listed weights or less than 3%. In my mind the 165 should be treated the same as a 169 or 170, as the difference is negligible. I would agree an '06 in good condition should handle charges slightly greater than the 13.5 gr. loads listed, but not 50% more. I personally think using an 18 or 19 grain charge with the bullets mentioned in a 30-06 is "flirting with disaster" especially without the proper pressure testing equipment and working the load up from the 13.5 gr. charge very slowly. Also consider what the hardness required of a cast bullet to withstand the pressures generated by such a load in a 10-twist barrel would be. Personally I would work with loads in the 11 to 13.5 range to find my best load and be happy. If you want to push cast faster in your rifle then move to one of the slower rifle powders.
Good Luck with your test,
Rick

[singleshot]

Even if that load of Red Dot you mention is in a reloading manual, it's sure to be horrible for accuracy. You just can't push boolits that hard AND fast. Also, is the Ranch dog mould you mention "TLC311" or TLC 225? 225 suggests it's a 22 cal boolit. I've got the TLC311-165...

[Ben]

Where does TLC225 fit into all this ?

[Single Shot]

Even if that load of Red Dot you mention is in a reloading manual, it's sure to be horrible for accuracy. You just can't push boolits that hard AND fast. Also, is the Ranch dog mould you mention "TLC311" or TLC 225? 225 suggests it's a 22 cal boolit. I've got the TLC311-165...

That is the other reason I do not trust internet of buddy data, but still like to get opinions so I can research to confirm, TYPOS, I did mean the 311. I was looking at a picture I have of molds in stock as I created the thread and transposed part of the 225 stacked on top of it for the 311.
THANKS FOR CATCHING THAT.

I had told my friend that just because his gun had not blown up yet does not mean accumulated stress will not make it do it on the next shot. I asked the question to see if there was any reference to a published data source using that load.

In regards to your comment that you can not push a cast bullet that fast, the Lyman 48th on page 223 lists 18 grains of Unique at 1852 fps as the accuracy load for their 160 grain 311672 with #2 alloy.And for their 311291 170 grain bullet using 26 grains of xmp-5744 at 1928 fps as the accuracy load.

Check out the chart for the Lee lead hardness tester and the article in Lee Modern Reloading second edition page 129 Matching Bullet Metal To Chamber Pressure. You will be surprised how fast you can push a cast bullet accurately, if you blend the alloy and heat treat to get the hardness you need.

Even better news is that I just found out the Mom Pop small powder shop about 45 minutes away has powders and primers in stock.

RickinTN Thanks for your reply too.

[Larry Gibson]

16-19 gr 4759 with a dacron filler would be my first choice for that weight cast bullet in that velocity range in the '06.

Larry Gibson

[Single Shot]

Thanks Larry,

I did see the bullets above and below the 165 in the Lyman book. Using 4759 with your data falls right in to where it should be for the 165. I actually was able to order some of the powder. I got the last one because after my order, it was now out of stock.

[Single Shot]

Where does TLC225 fit into all this ?

I screwed up the mold number and have since fixed it.

[leadman]

Yes, cast boolits can be pushed fast, with the appropriate powder. With Red Dot the suggested 11 to 13grs for a start is good. I use 19grs of SR4759 in the 30-06 with Lyman 311041, no filler and it shoots very well.

[Single Shot]

I am trying to find some SR4759. I also received this reply on another site.

If you are looking for an inexpensive powder that works well with heavy bullets in the 30-06, new surplus IMR7383 is a very good one:

IMR7383 This is a slow burning stick powder originally used for the Cal. .50 M48A2 Spotter/Tracer round. It is a very bulky, single-based powder, that was developed to replace the IMR4831 powder that was being used. It has about the same propellant energy as IMR4831 when compared in equal volume. IMR4831 data can be used. Begin with starting loads, reduced 15% by weight. This is new powder, not pulldown. [b]

I had previously used 43.0 gr H4831 with the Lee C312-185-1R sized/checked to .3105" in Lyman #2 alloy at ~2,000 fps. I followed supplier instructions and reduced that to 36.6 gr IMR 7383 surplus. The load is stupendous good out of my 1903A3 and groups 1/2" @ 50 yards bench shooting. Powder volume, point of impact and group size is the same with both loads.

[Lead Fred]

How about good ole 4895, 28grs will do y just fine.
I use the same load in both the 30wcf & 06

[singleshot]

In regards to your comment that you can not push a cast bullet that fast, the Lyman 48th on page 223 lists 18 grains of Unique at 1852 fps as the accuracy load for their 160 grain 311672 with #2 alloy.And for their 311291 170 grain bullet using 26 grains of xmp-5744 at 1928 fps as the accuracy load.

Check out the chart for the Lee lead hardness tester and the article in Lee Modern Reloading second edition page 129 Matching Bullet Metal To Chamber Pressure. You will be surprised how fast you can push a cast bullet accurately, if you blend the alloy and heat treat to get the hardness you need.
RickinTN Thanks for your reply too.

Notice, I didn't say you can't push 'em that fast, only. I routinely run cast up to 2400 fps without paper patching (higher with.) You just can't push 'em fast if you hit them hard with a fast burning powder. It's the combo of the fast powder and trying to push higher velocity that will kill accuracy. With a slower, more gentle shove of a slower powder, you can increase velocity.

[Adk Mike]

I shoot a 30-06 at least 150 rounds a month. Year in year out. 13 grains of Unique seems to be the sweet spot out to two hundred yards. I try others and the Unique load is hard to beat. With Unique hard to get use Herco 13.5 grains it will do as well. For me an 8 pound jug last a long time.

[Single Shot]

singleshot

Great info thanks.

Adk Mike

Major Brain fart. Guess who has Herco out it the shed and forgot about it.