1903 30-06 1000yds what mold!

[FAsmus]

Frank;

I do not have the capability to calculate BC for the bullets I shoot.

I do know for a fact that the reason large caliber bullets shoot better, that is with less drift than a smallbore bullet with the same sectional density, is because surface area increases less for the given SD the bigger you go. As I indicated before in this thread; less surface area = less drag = less wind drift.

Then, "scientifically" or not I have fired in the same condition with fellows on the line at long range. Me with my 30'06, they with their 45s. After a relay in moderate wind is complete we have compared sight settings, finding that my windage is always nearly twice what they have dialed in at any range beyond, say, 650 yards.

If you can calculate the BC for RCBS 30-180-SP @ 190 grains and compare it to a good Postell design 45 @ 535 grains it would be interesting.

Further, I do not say that smallbore bullets are "less accurate" than the big stuff: In calm or nearly calm conditions the 30 will shoot as well or better than the 45s ~ accuracy, less recoil, all that stuff. I do maintain that they drift more in the same wind.

However, we have been flirting around with speed in this thread a good deal. At the relatively close targets, like from the 350 "Offhand" on out to the 587 "Diamond" - where the 30 is still humming along supersonic - things go very well indeed. Its fun!

Frank asks; One other thing....... have you actually tried shooting a 30 cal at that range at lower velocity?

Forrest; Yes. At the beginning when I first took the 30'06 out for long range I was using the typical light loads of 4759. These combinations were accurate but slow. Not really slow liken to PB shooting but not 'fast' either. They drifted badly enough that in any real wind I'd run out of windage trying to keep up.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Larry;

In your last post you asked about sight elevation limitations.

In the M1903 it is easily done with the Camp Perry tool. ~ However, I can't see the front sight well enough for good shooting these days either.

My solution is to build and use receiver sight aperture extensions. When my receiver sight runs out of elevation (I don't have a long-staff 48 for everything) I install these simple extensions right on the line and keep on shooting.

If (shudder) I shoot with an optical sight I simply add a 0.057 shim under the rear mount to gain additional elevation capability. The 0.057 thickness was arrived at by estimation and good luck. I can shoot at 100 yards and not run out of internal adjustment at 834 with my chosen load.

Look at my avatar - you can see the odd scope angle on my M1903 there on the line.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Larry Gibson]

Forrest

I think the M1903 rear sight may have enough adjustment for frank's loads but will see what he comes up with. I've shot 311284s at 1400 fps at 100 yards and know the initial sight setting for zero, past that I don't know the elevation requirements for 1000 yards especially. Based on the 45-70 elevation requirements the '03 rear sight may have enough.

Have an '03 sight adjustment tool. Works great on the OM tang sight too.

All my long range scoped rifles have the bases shimmed also. I have the scope elevation bottomed out +3 moa up and shim them for a 200 yard elevation zero. That leaves max elevation adjustment in the scope. Just a different way to skin the cat is all.

My match '03 has a 48 long slide with 1/4 moa adjustments. I've another cast rifle with another M 48 long slide. My M 70 and Savage match rifles have Redfield Palma sights which have lots of elevation adjustments.

Looking close at your avatar I see we must get together for some long range '03 shooting?

Larry Gibson

[FAsmus]

Win94ae;

Your request is granted.

I have just returned from the range after shooting my 2-groove M1917 Enfield over the long range course of fire.

As I indicated, I chronographed the load I normally use for this kind of shooting for the membership's consideration.

I clocked 18 rounds this time. It has been a bright sunny day and the timer didn't work perfectly due to high light conditions - this is always somewhat frustrating but I believe the rounds I caught were timed correctly.

Anyway, I shot RCBS 30-180-SP heat treated from the mold @ 190 grains over 32.5 grains IMR 4895.

Average velocity was 2030 ft/sec. Standard Deviation for the 18 shots was 10.73.

In the single shot game I always tried very hard to get my SD below 10. Here in bottle-neck shooting I'm pretty happy to see anything below 15.

(The black powder boys can get numbers like 4 or 5 SD ~ I think that this capability is what keeps them in the running at all.)

Conditions were tough out there in the hot sun. I and my two dogs drank a full gallon of water.

At the 834 yard distance things were challenging in that the wind was on the nose, switching over from 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock, not strong mind you, but when it went over-center (if you could see it do so) the bullet impact really got going too.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Larry;

I looked up an old sight-card for my M1903. It had numbers for 311284 over 31.0 gr 4198 on out to 1000 ~ and plenty left over for something slow like Frank's 1400 ft/sec idea.

When I wrote down the numbers I didn't note which portion of the sight I was using. The 'U' at the top, the inverted 'V' lower on the sight or the peep. I do believe it was the peep but there is no doubt about plenty of elevation.

I too think it would be rewarding to spend some time on the firing line together ~ but I imagine you live far, far away from Sheridan.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[frnkeore]

Forest,
This might explain why you had a much greater wind drift than your buddy's 45 cal.

While I can't post a design for his Postel. I can post the 40 cal Snover bullet and it's close in design to the Postel.



Next, the discontinued RCBS 200 gr Sil



The last bullet design is my own and would be a excellet 1000 yard, fixed bullet for the '06.



Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Forrest

I'm hoping to get up that way next May/June for some PD shooting. Maybe then?

Larry Gibson

[Win94ae]

...Anyway, I shot RCBS 30-180-SP heat treated from the mold @ 190 grains over 32.5 grains IMR 4895.

Average velocity was 2030 ft/sec. Standard Deviation for the 18 shots was 10.73.

In the single shot game I always tried very hard to get my SD below 10. Here in bottle-neck shooting I'm pretty happy to see anything below 15...

Thank you!

That is interesting. I have a very precise load using the Lee 180gr RN, with 48.2gr of IMR4350 going 2215fps with an extreme spread of about 15. I've only shot it to 400 yards so far, (I need to wait until the corn is down before I can try 600.) I expect it to go transonic at 550 yards, whereas I would only get reliable accuracy at 600. Now I'm thinking I might get it a bit further.

I'm trying to get all my ducks in a row before I go to a public range, whereas I can shoot passed 600 yards.

I use the same load in my sporterized Springfield03, (100fps slower,) which it seems to be just as precise.

But my sight is at the halfway point at 300 yards with 22.5MOA of travel left. So I don't think I'm going to be able to get it very far, simply because I don't have enough sight. My scoped 30-06 with about 45MOA more adjustment will have to get me as far as possible.

Thanks again... everyone!

[FAsmus]

Win94ae;

That is an impressive load. I have some 4350 around here somewhere - I may try it too.

What kind if sight are you using?

Did you notice how Larry and I use shims under the rear mount of scopes to increase available elevation? ~ Also, simple extensions for receiver sight apertures are the answer for that type sight.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Win94ae]

Win94ae;

That is an impressive load. I have some 4350 around here somewhere - I may try it too.

What kind if sight are you using?

Did you notice how Larry and I use shims under the rear mount of scopes to increase available elevation? ~ Also, simple extensions for receiver sight apertures are the answer for that type sight.

Good morning,
Forrest

On the Springfield, there is a Lyman 57 SME which screws into the receiver at the side. :/

My scoped rifle has Burris Signature Zee rings with inserts that I can cant my scope, so I am good with it... other than I have my eye on a $300 Super Sniper scope.

[FAsmus]

Frank;

You posted some nice drawings - I'd like one of those RCBS SIL molds!

However, if you really want to compare bullet designs we really should see what sectional density and ballistic coefficient each one of then has. The drawings are nice, but I could not read any of the text they included. ~ If the data was there it was invisible to me.

The 45 caliber Postell design is well known. Lyman even produces one which shoots well enough and you should be able to give it a whirl in some meaningful way. The others like SAECO, Paul Jones' designs or NEI's offerings are around too, just to name a few.

All things being equal the man who did that shooting with me is a better shot than I am. ~ On the other hand, I did beat him twice at the 1000 with my 50/90 - shooting bigger bullets than his by the way.

Good day,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Win94ae:

Here are a couple shots of the Redfield "Hunter" type sight I have on my M1917 Enfield with the extension in place.

As you can see it is a very simple little item; easy to make, easy to use.

Good day,
Forrest

[frnkeore]

Forrest,
If you click on the pictures, they should enlarge so that you can read them. If not, give me your Email and I can send them to you full size.

Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank;

Thanks, that worked. ~ I'm happy to see the BC of the RCBS 30-180-SP at last.

I sure like your design. I bet it does fine in 200 yd PB competition.

Good morning,
Forrest

[WILCO]

The 30 caliber, shooting cast bullets (except perhaps for PP @ 2600+ or so) cannot shoot with the venerable old black powder cartridges at 1000 yards. (Shooting black or smokeless by the way - I do not play favorites)

This, as you see, is a pretty firm statement.....

Yep. With my limited knowledge on such matters, that's how I took it.

[HollowPoint]

These bullets aren't readily available but, I modified an NOE 198 grain Spitzer cast bullet to use as a Long Range hunting bullet.

I'm still doing load work up as time permits but, admittedly it's slow going due to my work schedule. I have found them to fly concentrically with no leading of any kind at a hundred yards. The tightest groups I've gotten so far are about an inch with a couple of different loads.

I never intended them to travel a thousand yards but with proper heat treated alloy and getting them up to 2200-2400 fps, it may be enough velocity to get you to a thousand yards without key-holing as it gets to the transition zone between supersonic and subsonic speeds. I was thinking more like four or five hundred yards of accurate fire when I put them together.

With slower burning powders it might get you there.

HollowPoint

[frnkeore]

Where do you get those aluminum BT GC's?

Frank

[HollowPoint]

Where do you get those aluminum BT GC's?

Frank

They're home-made Gas-Checks made with home-made Gas-Check-Dies. They were made for an ongoing project to determine the viability of Boat-Tailed cast bullets for long range shooting and hunting.

This project was only intended to last a few weeks. It's now going on a few months. I'm now in the shooting/testing stages of this project but, due to my erratic work schedule it's hard to find the time to get to the range as I'd like. I'm slowly making progress though.

HollowPoint

[frnkeore]

Thank you, Hollowpoint.

Do they crimp on like Hornaday GC's and have you tested to see if they reliably stay attached after exiting the muzzle?

Frank

[HollowPoint]

As of now I've tested these specialty Gas-Checks on five different cast bullets that included a couple of my own home made bullet molds. I have not been able to recover any of the bullets I've shot.

The subject of recovering one or more of my fired bullets has been brought up in another thread here on this forum. Once I work up an accurate enough load to do some long range testing, I'll make it a point to shoot them into some sort of test-medium in order recover a few.

I'd be interested in examining the bullets to see what the tail ends look like after being shot. I think that would yield alot of information regarding the effects of the burning powder on these Boat-Tailed bullets and the Gas-Checks.

They are crimped on exactly like conventional plain based Gas-Checks. Since these Boat-Tailed Gas-Checks tend to cover more of the Gas-Check-Shanks on my cast bullets, this means they have a larger surface area to secure to than conventional plain base Gas-Checks. Also, since the bullets themselves have the Boat-Tail Bevel extensions incorporated into the bullet mold cavities, I'm assuming that this equates to more gripping power once they're crimped on.

In order to be sure of this I'll have to recover a few of the fired bullets.

HollowPoint