1903 30-06 1000yds what mold!

[Larry Gibson]

Alright bob, I reread #22. There is nothing inconsistent with my answer above and Forrest's post #22. However, you might consider as inconsistent your recommendation to use powders that do not meet his requirements as outlined in posts #s 1 & 22.

What is required to shoot a cast bullet accurately at 1000 yards and the requirements of the needed cast bullet have been answered. I'll leave the wizardry to you.

Larry Gibson

[FAsmus]

Larry;

Roger your comments about shooting the best BC bullet a fellow can stabilize and shoot accurately at an (so far) unspecified muzzle velocity. ~ We know that stuff.

My question is and remains: What is your solution? I really am interested.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Larry Gibson]

As I mentioned earlier PPing is probably my solution. However i'm looking at trying the heavier Aladin SP if I can find a mould. If it doesn't work as cast then I'll try it PP'd along with the Lyman 200 gr PP bullet. ..if I can find one of those.....

Other than the above there just isn't currently a good cast bullet design with a high enough BC for the velocity necessary to hold sonic to 1000 yards out of a 10" twist '06 M1903. All the wizardry in the world trying to turn lead into gold not with standing.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

For successful 1000 yard shooting with a M1903 '06 you will need a bullet with a sufficient BC and velocity to remain sonic to the said 1000 yards.

I'm going to assume here that Larry means supersonic (son·ic, adj. Of, relating to, or determined by audible sound.), but I fail to see the validity of his statement. It matters not the rifle shot, either. Realitive accuracy can be had at any velocity (even trans sonic). What matters most with long range shooting is wind drift and the accuracy of the load.

I know of no match quality loads, shot fixed with bullets of a BC of .400 or more. The 311/314299 is by far the most used match quaility bullet used in CBA competition with a BC of .377. I've never seen a 311329 or a 311365 win a match, ever! Most people that use those bullets, never get match accuracy at even 100 yards, especially at anything near 2000 fps. I would guess that you'd never find a hit at 1000 yards trying to use one of those bullet and I know of no higher GCed, BC bullets than those. High BC non bore riding bullets usually will shoot better at lower velocity and thus, I suggest doing it that way. As shown in my other post, it has a wind drift advantage and as shown by BPCR results, lower velocity accuracy is proven.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

Apparently you've never actually shot long range and observed the inaccuracy caused by the bullet dropping down through the "sound barrier"? The loss of accuracy from that is not related to wind drift or initial accuracy.

No comment on the rest of your post as it fully supports my last post, well said.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

My competitors and myself, deal with trans sonic, all the time. We shoot 200 yards at + - 1400 fps. What happens to a trans sonic bullet at that range is that it tips, like the twist is to slow. What happens in LR shooting is that tipping causes a big drop in the BC until it re-stablizes causing additional wind drift.

I have seen some very good scores shot as the bullet goes through the target in this range so, it's does not necessarily cause inaccuracy.

Frank

[FAsmus]

Larry & Frank;

I've dealt with the transition of bullet velocity from supersonic to subsonic a good deal.

My understanding from an aviation background is that transition from the fast to the slow is the area of greatest aerodynamic drag and therefore the greatest wind drift. In flying it used to be called "The Sound Barrier" ~ and it is real.

Here at my range altitude of 4000 ft and in summer temperatures the speed of sound is not the same as at sea level on a "standard day" of 59 degrees F @ 29.92 hg and RH of 50% where it goes around 1150 ft/sec. Nope!

On the typical summer day of say 80 degrees @4000 ft pressure altitude, Density Altitude (pressure altitude corrected for non-standard temperature) runs around 6500 ft or slightly more. This brings the speed of sound down to something like 900 ft/sec simply because the air is less dense. ~ Pretty darn slow! Like too slow to think about keeping muzzle velocity that low or even as low as 1150 ft/sec. The bullets would never stabilize for one thing.

Frank, your 1400 ft/sec shooting @ 200 yards pretty much keeps you out of trans-sonic trouble. My shooting in 30'06 at 18 - 1900 keeps me in the clear on to around 6 - 700 yards.

Larry's idea, yet to be verified over the distance, is to PP a 200+ grains cast bullet and push them to 2500 or 2600 if he can get there with accuracy, then go for the 1000. Good fortune to you.

Good morning,
Forrest

[frnkeore]

Forrest,
The starting velocity is 1400 fps, not the terminal velocity. A typical load would be a .3 BC ( nose pour Hoch type bullet) with a terminal velocity of 1108. Trans sonic occures both above 1120 fps (@ sea level) and below. My shooting elevation is approx. 1450 above sea level. I use spitzer bullets with around .4 BC's or better and try to find loads of around 1450+ fps giving terminal velocitys in the 1200 fps range, still VERY close to the upper trans sonic range at my elevation and with a few odd ES, I can drop right in there.

We shoot in the very worth possible velocity range for both wind drift and trans sonic problems. The reason for that is that we can only shoot plain base bullets.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

You might want to go back to the beginning of this thread and read the title and then the question in the first post. The question is about 1000 yard shooting with a M1903 '06 which has a 10" twist. Your example of the 32-40 with a 14" twist is not relevant. Consider at 1000 yards the high angle of incidence as a bulet comes down. The buffeting the bullet gets coming down through the sonic barrier is severe especially with the bullets nose up. Even the best of the most aerodynamic bullets lose accuracy during that transition. Every long range shooter understands this.

Be best if your heartburn with me didn't get in the way of facts. Do a little research on the topic and you'll get the facts confirming what Forrest and I are discussing. I've no doubt you probably know something positive to add instead of negative and irrelevant information. This has been a good and informative thread. Lets not lead it astray, ok?

Larry Gibson

[Scharfschuetze]

What I have to add is a close corollary to the above conversation even though it deals mostly with jacketed bullets in the 308/7.62 NATO at 1,000 yards. Ballistics is ballistics and a projectile's performance at range is governed by its velocity, sectional density, ballistic coefficient, uniformity and its structural strength.

In the early to mid 1980s, the goal of National Match and long range shooters was to improve upon the LC M118 Match load and the later M118 Special Ball load at long range. Both of these loads (same other than powder and case) used the 173 grain 30 cal match bullet and kept the projectile supersonic through 1,000 yards, but the quality of the projectile did not produce the accuracy needed to shoot competitively at the state, regional or national levels unless it was the required round as in the military matches and the matches at Camp Perry for the service rifles.

Civilian shooters, not constrained by military requirements in ammo, wanted something more accurate at 1,000 yards in the 308 and used the 168 gr SMK and the 180 gr SMK, but the 7.62 NATO/308 Winchester could not keep them supersonic at 1,000 yards as the 168 SMK didn't have the BC for it at top velocities and the 180 gr MK didn't start fast enough out of the 7.62/308 to get to 1,000 yards while still supersonic.

Now the 168 and 180 grain Sierra Match Kings have a much better ballistic coefficient than any cast bullet in 30 calibre is going to have and they could be launched at the highest velocity possible in a 24" match rifle barrel in 7.62/308 but they were still not getting there fast enough to stay supersonic. If they can not reliably get there without going sonic or sub-sonic, then I'm thinking that a cast bullet remaining supersonic at 1,000 yards might just be more than we can reasonably expect. For the average loader perhaps a bridge too far.

Having shot extensively at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards in competition and slightly farther tactically I can attest to the sudden decrease in accuracy of a 30 calibre projectile dropping through the "sound barrier" and into the sonic or subsonic regimes of its flight. If you wish to research it further, you can look for the three part series produced by the NRA for high-power shooters in the early 80s. I believe Creighton Audet wrote the article "You Can't Get There from Here" in the third part of the series that gives very good insight into getting bullets to a thousand yards efficiently.

The solution for 30 calibre shooters in the 1990s was when Sierra came up with the super-slick-spitzer-boat-tailed 175 grain Match King. It closely follows the lines and weight of the old M1 ball projectile loaded for the 1903 Springfield as adopted in 1906 and used in WW I and which was basically the same bullet used in the original LC M118 Match and the Special Ball load for indirect MG fire and sniper use. The Army started loading this new 175 grain projectile into the M118 LR (long range) load that is now issued for the M-24 Sniper Weapon System (SWC) and subsequent sniper rifles in 7.62 NATO calibre such as the SR-25 in order to increase the effective range of the systems.

My point in the above diatribe? Some bullets can and some bullets can't get there from here in the manner that we want. I don't think anyone will argue that a jacketed bullet can't be driven harder than even a paper patched linotype boolit in either the 308 or the 30/06 and yet most jacketed bullets, in the 308 anyway, won't get to a thousand yards without going sonic or subsonic. I think we can safely say that this is also the case for cast boolits, even from the 30/06.

The "sonic" disruption of the bullet is real and will probably always be a factor in getting your 30 cal cast boolits to a target accurately a thousand yards away and that is probably the reason, as noted in a previous post, why cast boolits are not used in long range competition against jacketed bullets.

That all said, we don't need to hit paper with a supersonic projectile if we're just having fun and we understand the challenges of trajectory and wind deflection with what is arguably a "challenged" bullet at that distance. If I were trying to do this I think that I would look for the longest and heaviest cast boolit design that I could find, and as mentioned by many already, in a paper patch design and then cast it from linotype to make it as structurally strong as possible.

[frnkeore]

Larry, Larry, Larry,
I'm sorry, this isn't about you

The question was brought up as to what happens in trans sonic flight (BTW, the OP is MIA. So this has become a how best to attain accuracy at LR) and still realvent to the OP's post.

The buffeting the bullet gets coming down through the sonic barrier is severe especially with the bullets nose up. Even the best of the most aerodynamic bullets lose accuracy during that transition. Every long range shooter understands this.

If your taking about Palma matches, that is simply not true. 308's at 1000 yd have terminal velocitys of approx. 1287 fps for the sierra 190 and 1348 for the 168. The 190 is well with in the upper trans sonic range and the 168 just out of it. The angle of departure is only about .6 deg for both loads, not exactly nose up. So accuracy can be excellent in trans sonic in the Palma matches.

Now with a 311299 at 2200 fps, the bullet spends quite a bit of time in the trans sonic zone, from about 550 to 800 yds at 1.22 deg, nose up attitude. Though I don't know if programs allow for for the wobbley trans sonic fight and maybe not for the nose up attitude, it has to kill the BC quite a bit. It's traveling a long time in that area. Hince my original suggestion to shoot at approx. 1400 fps. At 1400 the bullet will travel the last 500 yds subsonic, plenty of time to be well stabilized when it hits the target and less than 500 fps lower velocity than the 190 gr SBT that started at 2500 fps.

While there could be some advange in traveling the full distance super sonic, you'll never get a cast bullet there at that speed, with any accuracy.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Check the facts Frank, you're out in left field........

The Palma Match (original international rules) requires bullets of 145 - 155 gr.....not 190 or 168 gr. The current US rules allow .308W and 5.56 NATO with any bullet weight. Even then the bullets of either of those transitioning subsonic are adversely affected. Best you also recheck that angle of departure. Please get the facts straight. ....

However, let's give you the benefit of the doubts. ....how many cast bullets out of a M1903 or even your 32-40 have you shot on target at 1000 yards? At 600 yards? Or are sitting there plaing with computer programs?

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

There you go again, Larry. I would suggest that you check out the facts, while I'm not a long range shooter, I have shot in practice prone, with the High Power guys at 600 yards, here at the White City, OR range (old ww2, Camp White Range) with the rifle your see pictured in my Avatar, a 30/40 chambered A&M barreled High Wall. I do deal with trans sonic shooting at least every month or more. That I do know about!

But, I also follow German Salizar's writings on long range match shooting, a regular winner in the 300 - 1000 yard matches.

Actual real world testing of the Palma in a 15 round test.
Sierra 155 Palma
1500 / 0.380
2000 / 0.418
2500 / 0.428
3000 / 0.442
Average:0.417
*Sierra advertises an average BC G1 of 0.437 for this bullet for all speeds (+5% error).
Actual article, below.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...ALMAbullet.pdf

Terminal velocity with this bullet is even lower than the 190 gr Sierra Match. the Plama bullet starts @2900 fps and gets there @ 1218 fps.

Angle of departure is 37.268 minutes or .621 degrees.

I don't shoot BPCR or the NRA BP class but, maybe someone from those disciplines will chime in and offer some enlightenment on 600 - 1000 yard low velocity shooting.

As for your other remark about me actually shooting. I shoot cast bullets in shoulder to shoulder matches EVERY month @ 200 yards from March - October and practice once or twice each month, also!

When was the last organized, shoulder to shoulder match that you shot? Long range or short?

Frank

[frnkeore]

Larry, I'm here trying to help people determine what it takes for accurate LR shooting with cast bullets and show that it doesn't take high velocity to attain it. The laws of physics apply here and the programs are used by experianced LR shooters such as German Salazar. He uses and cites thoughs programs and that's how I found them.

If you have actually done HV LR cast accurately, it tell us how it's done. Do you shoot at trans sonic velocitys and see the results on the target? I on the other hand know what bullets do in the trans sonic range and the groups and a few of the people that actually shoot 1000 yards. Their loads are mostly (after 200 yards) traveling in the subsonic range, where wind drift is less and it's easier to get accuracy than trying to shoot cast at 2700+. A area that I don't not think ANYONE has been sucessful at.

I relalize that a lot of people can't wrap their head around the fact that low velocity can be both accurate and have less wind drift than the much higher cast GC velocitys but, it's true!

Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank;

Yes, I've been there in the scheutzen game too - long ago at Coors. ~ I know how that shooting is done and a pretty good idea of what works.

Your information about loads and so forth make perfect sense for the shooting done at those distances. But I hope you will agree that shooting the 1000 is not really the same thing ~

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Frank;

You say: Though I don't know if programs allow for for the wobbly trans sonic fight and maybe not for the nose up attitude, it has to kill the BC quite a bit. It's traveling a long time in that area. Hinse my original suggestion to shoot at approx. 1400 fps. At 1400 the bullet will travel the last 500 yds subsonic, plenty of time to be well stabilized when it hits the target and less than 500 fps lower velocity than the 190 gr SBT that started at 2500 fps.

While there could be some advantage in traveling the full distance super sonic, you'll never get a cast bullet there at that speed, with any accuracy.

Forrest: Have you ever tried that kind of a 30 caliber load at 1000 yards - or even at 800? If so please tell us what you found when shooting in any kind of wind.

I know it semi-sounds interesting perhaps on some kind of soft-wear that produces numbers that seem encouraging but the little 30 caliber pills simply won't perform well at distance in any kind of 'interesting" condition. You'll find yourself off one side and then the other as conditions change only slightly.

Meanwhile the fellow next to you with his 50/90 and a 700 grain plain-base bullet will enjoy consistent hits - even as he grunts in pain every time he fires a shot..

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Frank;

This thread is digressing a bit far from the original request for a mold to shoot the 1000 in 30'06.

I will simply state that I have entered and won two 1000 yard matches with a 50/90SS and the 700 grain Jones bullet @1350 ft/sec MV. It works for the reasons I have stated previously - But that is really neither here or there.

The question is how to get reasonably reliable results in 30 caliber cast bullet shooting at long range.

In my current cast bullet shooting off the cross-stick rest in 30'06 and 7mm Mauser I have found loads that are consistent enough to provide reliable hits all the way out there to 1000. But be advised! Seeing hits (or misses) with a 30 or 7mm that far way is not easy!

I cannot stay with a good shot with his 45/90 with my groomed and treasured M70 30'06 but I can come close! (I did beat him several times in the 1000 with the Big Fifty) Especially if the wind is either steady or nearly calm the 30'06 will do well. (iron sights all)

My shooting partner complains now and then of the sharpness of my rifle's report. ~ I know the bullets are getting out there quite smartly but I have not bothered (so far) to chronograph the loads that work best. ~ I think that because of participation in this thread that I'll pack the clock up to the range tomorrow and share the results with the membership.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Win94ae]

...My shooting partner complains now and then of the sharpness of my rifle's report. ~ I know the bullets are getting out there quite smartly but I have not bothered (so far) to chronograph the loads that work best. ~ I think that because of participation in this thread that I'll pack the clock up to the range tomorrow and share the results with the membership.

Good evening,
Forrest

I will be eagerly awaiting that post.

[frnkeore]

Forrest,
You say that the only reason that PB low velocity bullets can be shot accurately with less wind drift to 1000 yards is because they are large caliber. Can you please explain scientifically why a BC in a large caliber can do what a equal BC in a smaller caliber can't? I have never heard of such a thing. If it were in terms of killing power or penetration, I would agree.

One other thing....... have you actually tried shooting a 30 cal at that range at lower velocity?

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

Good to see you do a lot of computer ballistic comparisons and follow Mr. Salazar’s 300-1000 yard shooting. Do the computer programs you use have data input for the bullets during the transition from sonic to subsonic phase? Thought not as neither do any on mine or any I’ve seen or heard about. Fascinating how your programs tell you what works and doesn’t during that transition……..My knowledge comes from having shot long range for 40+ years and observing the adverse affects of that transition.

Many years ago before the decimal targets for the NMC the targets used were 5V. The Match M1s were the “in” thing, many still used M1903s and the M14 was the very rarely seen new kid on the block. Many M1903 shooters used cast bullets, especially for the 100, 200 or 300 yard reduced courses. A few daring souls used them at the actual 600 yards range, mostly with 311284s and most often their scores were not up to their skill level so most still used jacketed bullets at that range. Most shooters had a hard time understanding why their loads shot 2 moa at 300 yards but barely held the target board at 600 yards. The target pullers in the pits noticed the holes were showing signs of the bullets tipping and the bullets did not “crack” over head.

Then 311299 came in vogue and scores improved enough because wit would hold 2 moa at 600 yards that many in expert class and below were using the 311299 at 600 yards also. The target pullers noticed nice round holes and the bullets “cracked” overhead. Simple explanation is the 311299s had gone subsonic and lost accuracy and the 311299s didn’t.

The new kid on the block took over with the M14 as a “Service Rifle”, 7.62 NATO/.308W became the in cartridge. New accuracy records demanded a new target and the decimal target was born. The M1903 was no longer a Service Rifle and cast bullet use for match shooting at 600 yards went the way of the dinosaurs. A few diehards continued to use them in reduced course though. Then the 168 MK became the darling for the 7.62 NATO in the M14 at 2550 – 2600 fps. Worked marvelously “across the course” and set all sorts of service rifle and match rifle records. Problem was when it was used in 1000 yard matches it was found the 168 MK went subsonic between 800 – 900 yards and accuracy went south. Most all match shooters back “in the day” went back to M118or used 180 gr MKs in reloads for 1000 yard matches because they stayed sonic to 1000 yards and held their accuracy.

In the early ‘70s there was a group of us who still had 5V targets and held informal old NMC matches with the M1903 still considered a service rifle. I thoroughly tested 311284s and 311299s out of numerous M1903s, ‘03A1s, ‘03A3s and even 4 M1903A4s at 600 yards. I also chronographed the successful loads in ’75 when I got my 1st Oehler chronograph. Elevation there was 4000 ft. I found that it took 2200+ fps (closer to 2300 fps) for the 311284 to stay sonic at 600 yards. However, pushed to that velocity/RPM accuracy was never good enough for even 5V match shooting at even the Marksman level score wise. However the 311299 when pushed to 2150 fps would just stay sonic and would produce low end expert level scores. Pushing the bullet faster only produce worse accuracy and lower scores.

Now on the other end of the spectrum I’ve also been shooting Trapdoor 45-70s for many a year with both smokeless and BP loads. Just a couple months ago I was shooting my H&R OM at 800 yards (range finder) and was hitting a 2 ½ ft rock more often than not. I’ve shot my target TD to 1000 yards numerous times. I do understand the dynamics of larger bullets seemingly transition subsonic and hold accuracy much better. Addionally I’ve done a lot of shooting of a 275 gr cast at 1050 fps out to 500+ yards with excellent accuracy…

Now the last few organized matches I’ve shot in were a 600 yard 60 shot for record belly match and a couple 300/600 yard reduced belly matches in the last 18 months. I shot a 576 with 29 X on the 600 yarder and 580+ on the reduced. I used my M1903A1 National Match Type II on the 600 yarder and of the 300 yard matches and my M70 target on other. I no longer shoot NMC because my eyes won’t let me see the front sight on an AR service rifle and the target at the same time………. However, I still shoot my Match M1A and numerous milsurp rifles out to as far as I want which is usually 600 – 1400 yards (one of the benefits of living in the wild west is all the BLM land available) for such. Just last month in eastern Oregon I was shooting some decent SF 80 185 fmjbt’s at 2600 fps out of a M1909 Argentine at 600 – 1000 meters using the rear sight settings (yes the rifle is zeroed at the lowest sight setting of 300 meters with that ammo). I’ve been shooting my 45 Colt M1873 carbine a lot at 200 yards but those loads start subsonic…….

Now if you want to go back farther than my many years shooting high power we can discuss my many years as an SF Weapons NCO which included a lot of sniper and long range shooting with all sorts of rifles around the world. However I don’t think we have the room here. Someone earlier in another thread mentioned someone who was a sniper and forgot more than we’ll ever know………I seriously doubt that because I’ve been doing that kind of shooting for a long, long time.

Now then, since you’re handy at the computer ballistic programs how about computing the 1000 yard elevation requirements for a 311299 starting off at 1400 fps on a M1903/M1903A1 rear sight if the 100 yard zero is already at the 800 yards slide range? Question is; with your idea of the best load is Forrest going to have enough sight elevation if your load works? And I might add in case you’ve not really shot a M1903 with the slide way up there it does not allow a spot or cheek weld that is conducive to good accuracy at 100 yards let alone 1000 yards.

BTW; what were your 600 yard scores with the 32-40? But ya know what Frank, enough of this tit for tat.....many of us here have told you what really happens when bullets dop subsonic. Your computer programs won't tell you that. So why don't you grab a M1903 with some 311284s, 311299s and your slick .4+ BC PB'd cast and go shoot them all at 600 and 1000 yards and then come back when you have some real practical experience and we can discuss reality instead of hypothetical computer ballistics that doesn't compute what we're discussing?

Larry Gibson