Clean bore to fouled bore accuracy, and patches..

[7of7]

What is normal between the clean and fouled bore shots?

I was just at the range today, my clean bore shots were at the 2 oclock position and 5 inches high, and the fouled bore were two inches high, but were at the 10 oclock position,(80 grains FFFG)..
Tried a 60 grain charge on a clean bore, and it was 8 inches low, and at the 7:30 position.
70 grains, clean bore, produced a 9 oclock at about 5 inches, and the fouled bore was 3 inces high. (12 oclock)

75 grains, produced a 2 oclock at 4 inches high, and the 70 grain follow up again was 3 high. (which would keep me in about a 5 inch group between the first shot and a follow up, which more likely wouldn't happen because any critter would be long gone by the time I got reloaded..)

Does this make sense as far as what normal should be between clean and fouled bore shots?

This is a 54 cal, the bore across the grooves is .556, with a .554 across the lands. I use Kik powder. The ball, .531. I was using .006 patches (that were marked as .010 patches,..so much for Cabella's patches). These patches burned through, which I don't like.. but the .018 patches with the prb seem too tight, but the patches look like they could be used again.

What should I be using for patch thickness? Should the patch completely fill the grooves, or just grip the ball and not burn through?

Any help will be greatly appreciated..

[Maven]

"... the .018" patches with the prb seem too tight, but the patches look like they could be used again."

7of7, Were you satisfied with the accuracy you got using the .018" patches? If not, or you'd just like easier starting & seating, go to your favorite fabric store with a micrometer and look for 100% cotton pillow ticking, duck cloth, or even denim in the lighter weights that will mic .016" when compressed.

[Squeeze]

you shouldnt show burn through in a used patch. they will look frayed around the edges usually, but id bet the .006 (.010)patches were too loose, you can get factory in .015, and self make them in any size. I usually use old T shirts that avg abt .013 they just have to be natural fiber ( cotton, hemp etc) no synthetics. For most of my guns, I rarely ever shoot through a clean barrel. some recommend a squib shot, I just usually pop 1-2 caps, then load. but id guess about a 4-6inch variation at 50 yards from a clean, to a fouled barrel is common. each gun will be different in what ball size/patch thickness it wants, even 2 consecutive numbered same model guns will usually like a bit different flavor. and to really get the best you can, even experimenting with different lube formulas will matter. but for minute of deer accuracy, usually just different balls, and the available patch thickness/factory lube is fine. I usually use T shirt patch, round punched to whatever cal size I want, and straight Hoppes#9 as lube, But I know a lot just use square patches or cut at the muzzle from strips. any is really just as well.

[fouronesix]

Patch thickness measuring is like measuring the length of a rubber band. Most ticking material I've measured is around .015. One thing to try with the thicker material is to wash and dry it a couple of times. It gets softer and easier to conform when seating. Given your ball diameter and bore specs, I'd go with a thicker patch.

My personal druthers for accuracy is a tighter patch fit. Your POIs for clean vs fouled seem more or less normal if there is such a thing. For hunting the first shot is the one that counts. And chances are that first shot will be from a clean bore. For my hunting rifles, I sight-in using a clean bore. But during the sight-in process, that clean bore including breech and flash channel need to be in the same condition as when you load the first shot for hunting. That requires special attention cleaning between shots at the range, otherwise the rifle will not fire the same or shoot the same.

[DougGuy]

That and the fact that it becomes difficult to tamp with the same pressure from shot to shot which in itself will throw things all over the place no matter what condition the bore is in. I went to pellets and accuracy got seriously consistent.

[Anonym]

I've found just the opposite as DougGuy using pellets. They typically vary tremendously due to the little chips and cracks that tend to be present on pellets, and (although you typically don't measure BP/Substitutes by weight) they vary in weight without any way to measure consistency between pellets. They don't care to be crushed, so you have to pay attention to loading pressure. They only come in pre-measured increments that may not be the best load for your rifle. And they have ignition conditions that make them unsuitable in the OP's .54 (assuming side lock), so maintaining an accurate measurement and consistency in loading is the only way to go once he has a good ball/patch/bore combo.

My brother-in-law has an inline CVA he complained about having 2-ft groups at 100-yds using 50 cal powerbelts over 2x100 grain pellets off a bench. I convinced him to let me have an hour with him and we worked up a very nice 80-grain load using loose 777 and brought him down to 1-in groups. All he had to do was be consistent in his loading, and his shots became VERY consistent. I gave him the rest of that pound of 777 and he threw out the pellets immediately.

I agree with fouronesix. Make sure your patching fits properly and be consistent in your loading and your cleaning to where you are replicating your first shot every time...

[mooman76]

Try to find a patch inbetween sizes that will work. Like stated it doesn't have to be pillow ticking. I go through the closet and find old but in good shape clothes I would get rid of. I find that old cotton dress shirt work good. Strong yet not real thick, usually around .012-.015. Also measuring the thickness really depends on how much you compress the cloth when measured. If you find you still need or want to use the thinner patch you can put an over powder wad in before you load the patched ball to keep it from burning through.
On the how it shoots comparison, clean bore vs fouled every gun will shoot different so it doesn't matter. Some like to shoot better with a clean bore, some fouled. Play around with the different loads until you find what your gun likes best. Consistancy is the key to good accuracy.

[fouronesix]

If you find a patch material that seems to work the best in that rifle- get a bunch of it and then you won't have to start the process all over again when you run out of scraps. Easy enough by the yard at one of the box stores. Use the odd scraps, worn out clothing, etc. for cleaning patches and rags.

[Lead Fred]

What should I be using for patch thickness? Should the patch completely fill the grooves, or just grip the ball and not burn through?

Your patch should be approx .005 bigger than your over all barrel groove dia. Yes the patch is sposed to fit down into the grooves, and seal the ball to the point the burning powder does not go past the patch. Your balls are too small, and your patch is way to thin.

Now to this clean shot/fouled shot. Pure hog wash. When your rifle is set up correctly, and you are using the correct lube, you should be able to shoot 1000s of shots and they all will follow each other. Mine do.

Your starter loads need not be over 60 grains, and depending on how short your barrel is, need not exceed 80 grains.
Any more and your wasting powder. Next get rid of that statute. Holy black only.

For those of you that use petroleum based products inside your barrel, are making it worse by forming sludge.
Water based products will make your rifle shoot & shine well.

Ive used only Thompson Center 1000+ products for decades now, and I shoot 100s of balls a year.
Ive not washed, nor oiled my Rice barrel since it was new in a decade ago.

Everything your know about, or use in a modern firearm should NEVER be put down your barrel.

You will have to wash it out with soapy every hot water to clean all the crud out.

After that lightly lube with TC 1000+ bore butter only.

[fouronesix]

No comment about 1000s of rounds with 1st shot POI same as last.

But, 7of7,
It does matter how you measure the cloth material. Since everyone measures in a slightly different manner using different tools-- translation among shooters is problematic.

For my normal, blue stripe ticking, twice washed and using the same piece of material, I can measure it with flat-jawed calipers with medium pressure and get about .018. Using a standard round/flat jawed mic with medium pressure, I get about .016. Using a ball/tubing mic with light pressure, I get about .0095.

Just find the patch material that works best, measure it, then get a quantity of the same material that measures the same using the same technique and tool.

[double8]

Been using either ticking or worn levi material with my Zouave....and a very light amount of Marvel mystery oil on the patch. Over 40 years with this and it still serves well for me. A light amount of MMO in the barrel after cleaning.
70 grs FFG.

[IROCZ]

Your patch should be approx .005 bigger than your over all barrel groove dia. Yes the patch is sposed to fit down into the grooves, and seal the ball to the point the burning powder does not go past the patch. Your balls are too small, and your patch is way to thin.

Now to this clean shot/fouled shot. Pure hog wash. When your rifle is set up correctly, and you are using the correct lube, you should be able to shoot 1000s of shots and they all will follow each other. Mine do.

Your starter loads need not be over 60 grains, and depending on how short your barrel is, need not exceed 80 grains.
Any more and your wasting powder. Next get rid of that statute. Holy black only.

For those of you that use petroleum based products inside your barrel, are making it worse by forming sludge.
Water based products will make your rifle shoot & shine well.

Ive used only Thompson Center 1000+ products for decades now, and I shoot 100s of balls a year.
Ive not washed, nor oiled my Rice barrel since it was new in a decade ago.

Everything your know about, or use in a modern firearm should NEVER be put down your barrel.

You will have to wash it out with soapy every hot water to clean all the crud out.

After that lightly lube with TC 1000+ bore butter only.

Fred, could you explain your process? I mean the not washing and oiling part. Do you use real BP or a substitute? Thanks.

[7of7]

Fred, Please do explain how you clean you rifles.. I am very curious on how you clean them after use. Mine is a percussion cap, not a rocklock.. Therefore, I am curious on how you clean the flash channel.
I read an article about properly seasoning the bore, prevents corrosion, kind of like the way cast iron frying pans are seasoned. When you wash them with soap and water, you should re-season them with oil and heat.
So, the question is how to clean the muzzle loader without soap and water, and clean the breech/flash channel.
Does that make sense?

[Maven]

7of7, You may want to look at the late Paul Vallandigham's article on NOT seasoning the bore: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/251958/

[Dirty30]

I have always been in the "less ball, more patch" camp my ownself. With good soft lead and a good charge of BP, the ball will obturate adequately to bite the rifling. I like a patch of .015-.018 thickness with a .530 or .527 roundball. Lee makes a mold for both. I have never burned through a patch yet. Stick with your FFFG, it's good stuff.

I shoot a .54 cal Tennessee longrifle, flintlock. I only clean my rifle with water. Water is as good as anything you can buy to clean a muzzleloader and it's cheap. You can bet your rifle barrel on not oiling it as others have recommended, I personally would not. If you're planning on shooting in the next couple of days, a light oil is fine to swab your barrel. Hershel House taught me to swab my barrel with 30W motor oil if I'm putting it up for any amount of time. You need an oil that will stay with your barrel for awhile. Just run a few clean, dry patches through it before you load again.

[Lead Fred]

I only use holy black, NO subs for my flinter, it just dont work right


During standard rondy, Ill shoot 25-40 shots.
A lot of times Ill double up with a flatlander who's rifle has fouled out, and can no longer fit a ball dont the bore.

Before I start the day, I swab the bore with TC 1000+ bore butter, and a light coat around the powder cup and frizzen bottom (cover).
Next I shoot the **** out of it.

After all the fun is done, I stuff pre-soaped patches with TC number 13 bore cleaner.
When they start to turn gray, I do one clean patch, one wet patch, until the all the powder residue is gone.
The wet patch pushed a lot of the bore cleaner out of the flash hole, along the residue gunk.
I wipe everything down with a clean rag, and then coat it all with a very light coating of TC 1000+ bore butter.

Stuff it in the safe, until the next rondy, or hunt. Then start all over again.

BTW My patches are impregnated with TC 1000+ bore cleaner, when I put them into my patch holder, I squirt
A bit of Number 13 bore cleaner into the patch box (really a brass snuff box) and shoot all day long.

BTW dudes, when you use the proper cleaning jag, it creates a suction, which cleans your flash hole.

For you cap gun kidz, take the nipple off, and you can get the same suction.
point yer nipple barrel in a safe direction, or da ooz might dribble down your pant leg

We have done this with flatlander cap locks to keep them going during a shoot.

Because the cleaner is water based over the winter, you may see rust from the breech plug.
It wipes clean with a couple of wire brush strokes, and a breech plug scraper.

Some folk run a patch with whale oil to the breech to prevent the rust. I do not.

At the end of the season, I remove the lock, tear it down, polish it and oil the two main springs ONLY
No other petroleum based oils should ever come in contact with inside of your barrel

[Dirty30]

Is that Bore Butter the stuff that smells like Ben Gay in a yellow tube? I think I used some of that before and it made good patch lube. I mostly use spit for patch lube, or bear grease if I'm going to be awhile before shooting. It's a good byproduct of hunting Hershel House builds the finest (IMHO) longrifles in the world. I always figured if a swab of motor oil down the barrel was good enough for him, it was good enough for me.

[7of7]

7of7, You may want to look at the late Paul Vallandigham's article on NOT seasoning the bore: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/251958/

Thanks Maven. What I was mainly getting at, was, if we clean the bores, with soap and water all the time, if we don't get it perfectly dry, it will rust in a few minutes.. (I have cleaned mine, and set the barrel aside for about 20 minutes, and low and behold,... a brown patch comes out.. when white patches were coming out before..) This is the reason the question to Lead Fred on his method for bore cleaning. I will start doing this from now on.. Since I have cleaned the hell out of my bore..
I am sighting in based on the shot from a clean bore.. I haven't found a load that doesn't produce a different POI, with a following shot. Since we only get one shot, I want it to go where I need it to...
Lead Fred, you are the only one I know of who's following shots have the same POI as the first shot.
Well, I will give the TC Bore butter and cleaner a try, as well as for the patches..

[Maven]

7of7, If you clean with warm, soapy water (dish soap), rinse and use dry flannel or better, paper towels to absorb the water, you'll reduce the flash rusting. As soon as that's done, spray enough WD-40 down the bbl. so it runs out the nipple channel or vent if a flintlock. Check the bore the next day and swab it again with your favorite preservative. Daryl, on the American Longrifles Forum, wrote this earlier today:

"After flushing in a bucket of water, I dry the bore which usually takes 4 doubled, flannelette patches - VERY tight fit, until the last 2 really 'grab' showing the bore is dry. I liberally spray WD40 down the tube to absolutely flush out any residual moisture. The WD40 runs out the vent or nipple seat, then a doubled patch down the bore, up and down, which blasts the remaining WD40 out the vent or nipple seat. That patch is used to wipe down the outside of the barrel before reassembling. If you live in a very humid area, you may need some further rust preventative. None of my barrels has ever rusted after cleaning, using this method, but our average humidity here is a only 50%."

[IROCZ]

I clean my muzzleloaders with hot soapy water or water and Ballistol. The hotter the water the faster it drys (without rusting). I use Ballistol for protection from rust. It is mineral oil based and neutralizes any water left in the barrel. I had problems in the past with rust using straight bore butter. I never was able to get the bore to season with it. I must have done something wrong.