.38 special + P ++

[Grump]

Gee whiz, Wally!!!!

Just when it looked like sensible heads had all made their cases intelligently on either side of the opposing "go ahead" and the "*I* wouldn't do it and ask that you don't", and there was a certain level of adult-style agreeing to disagree and letting each other pursue our own preference, we get a mini-argument going!

Give our esteemed OP gamma50 a break! Some of us (including his sometimes a bit-less-than-considerate offspring) choose to "plink" with full-power loads. Just 'cause YOU don't/won't/don't like to do that, don't give you no license to piss all over the idea.

His house, his rules, his preferences and leave him be.

There are some valid points on *published* old stuff from Skeeter being beyond-spec loads even for .357 Mag standards. Not every post the last 24 hours has honestly acknowledged that, but I'm sure that gamma50 and Leftiye and Char-Gar have indeed caught all the implications even if not directly addressed in their later posts.

IME, QuickLOAD can indeed predict pressures and velocities quite well IF proper tweaks to the powder's burn rate are entered AFTER entering case capacity, case length, barrel length, AND actual chrono'd velocities from a preliminary test session. That puts a person closer to the "in MY firearm" truth of the situation. Once that is done, then how far to back off from the old-data 9 grains of Unique load can be reasonably estimated.

The "burden of adequate precautions" for what gamma50 wants to do is light enough that any of the potential harms from those of US (myself included) who are reluctant to say "okay, no problem" would really fall more squarely on the stupidity of anyone downstream who is stupid enough to not believe what the labels say. I do recommend red-marking the primers so loose cases can be identified, and putting a legend of "Red Primer = OVERLOAD for .38 Special--use in .357 Magnum handguns ONLY" or some similar language on labels all over the ammo storage spot, the gun boxes, and whatever is likely to be hauled out to the shooting area. Or he could just personally supervise the distribution and firing of those specially-marked boxes of ammo Goodness and trust his kids. They might not have had the presence of mind to collect the brass in months and years past, but they may well have the intelligence to be trusted with blue-pill .38 Special cases. He will know that better than any of us, and I for one will trust his judgment. He has received good information here and can now make up his own mind after proper final testing of the loads he works up.

gamm50: PLEASE know that in my opinion, the only "pressure sign" worth "reading" even at .357 Mag levels is the velocity of the projectile with that powder and that bullet and that barrel length, vs. what a GOOD source like QuickLOAD says. There is almost never a safe load that exceeds what a full-power factory load delivers. That said, a .38 Special case with its smaller powder chamber will reach max pressure at a little bit slower velocity than an otherwise-identical load in a .357 Mag case. IME, losing a full 100 FPS is always more than enough to get well below max spec pressures.

Chill time now, everyone???

[Larry Gibson]

Char-Gar

Simple point of clarification; I have pressure tested the 358156 with Skeeter's loads in 38 SPL and 357 cases. 13 gr 2400 in the SPL cases gives a MAP in magnum territory but does not get close to the SAAMI MAP for the 357 magnum. The 15.5 and 16 gr loads in magnum cases are at the SAAMI MAP psi level. All are very good loads of which I do use in my Ruger Security Six and Contender.

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Larry,

Were your pressure tests with radial copper, or piezoelectric?

Early on before the industry standardized on their transducer setup, the government labs tried several different gages and methods. In 5.56 at least, there were problems with calibration. From an enginneering and R%D standpoint the BRL "minihat" seemed more reliable, but CIP and SAAMI wanted to use the conformal Kistler type, because it was more convenient for production.

[dragon813gt]

So out of curiosity. How did you measure the pressure?

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar

Simple point of clarification; I have pressure tested the 358156 with Skeeter's loads in 38 SPL and 357 cases. 13 gr 2400 in the SPL cases gives a MAP in magnum territory but does not get close to the SAAMI MAP for the 357 magnum. The 15.5 and 16 gr loads in magnum cases are at the SAAMI MAP psi level. All are very good loads of which I do use in my Ruger Security Six and Contender.

Larry Gibson

I have never pressure tested anything, not even flatulence. All I know on the subject is what my betters tell me. I will let you and Outpost75 do all the science and tech talk and I will go to bed.

[Grump]

I have never pressure tested anything, not even flatulence. [snip] I will let you and Outpost75 do all the science and tech talk and I will go to bed.

Best idea I've heard all day, sir. Shalom.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't load past "book" +P pressures in 38 Special ammunition, and it has been some time since I did that. +P's only role in my shooting was to duplicate the duty 38 Special carry loads, and I stopped carting around a 38 Special in harm's way some years back. It is purely a "sporter" for me now, and standard pressure in full flower does a fine job of rolling up jackrabbits or thumping coyotes. If push came to shove, these loads (#358429 at about 875-900 FPS, 5"-6" barrel) wouldn't do a 2-legged varmint a lot of good either--but that is not their intent.

Magnumizing a 38 Special makes little sense, with three 357 Magnums on staff. I do load the 357 pretty warmly for a Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5", but ALL are marked on the base with red Hi-Liter after each loading. These are Doug Wesson 1935-level loads +5% past that. They see NO USE in my 686 x 4" or the pre-27 N-frame. Doug Wesson-level is as warm as I go in the latter 2 wheelguns, and only about 10% of their shooting at that.

[Larry Gibson]

Oehler M43, Toshiba laptop and with the strain gauge over the chamber on a Contender barrel located as per SAAMI specification. Probably 20+ factory 38/357 loads test as per SAAMI test procedure as "reference".

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Oehler M43, Toshiba laptop and with the strain gauge over the chamber on a Contender barrel located as per SAAMI specification. Probably 20+ factory 38/357 loads test as per SAAMI test procedure as "reference".

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Oehler M43, Toshiba laptop and with the strain gauge over the chamber on a Contender barrel located as per SAAMI specification. Probably 20+ factory 38/357 loads test as per SAAMI test procedure as "reference".

Larry Gibson

Oehler 43 is good setup. Not sure how bore cross-sectional area and throating of the TC barrel compares to the standard P/V test barrel, but if you have good history on your reference ammo it will yield useful results, though perhaps a bit lower P/T averages and gentler slope on the curve than the standard test barrel.

[9.3X62AL]

Char-Gar's comments about Lyman #358429 not being the best choice for the 357 Magnum must have been rattling around in my head for a number of years on some level. My "go-to" 357 boolits have always been either #358156 or #358430/heavier version @ 195 grains. #358430 got some 38 Special time, as well. ACCURATE in both calibers, from 700-1200 FPS. #358477 was and is solely a 38 Special and (now) a 38 S&W bullet, and I've only been casting #358429 for about 5-6 years.......it came to the party rather late, and has been entirely a 38 Special missile so far. I just finished a lot of about 400 357 Magnums and 600 38 Specials in the past week--in 357, half of those got 125 grain JHPs atop 17.5 grains of 2400 as carry-load (Fed #357B) duplicators, the other half got #358156 atop 13.5 grains of 2400--this matches our old carry load, the W-W 158 grain JHP. They just shoot too well not to load, even if their factory counterparts have been retired from service. Truth to tell, it is hard to find a "bad" 357 Magnum loading.

The 38s got split 3 ways......200 each got 3.0 grains of WW-231 under Lyman #358432 or Remington swaged HBWCs, and the remaining 200 got 4.5 grains of Unique under #358429. This last is alleged to be a "+P" loading, and it does clock about 900-925 FPS from a 5" Model 10. These don't run in my Colt Officer's Model Special c. 1949. They hit right on the money from the 5" Model 10 at 25 and 50 yards, and if I do my part single-action I can keep all hits on a steel coyote cut-out at my range site at 100 yards, single-action and slowly fired. Sight alignment MUST be perfect, and placed at the top of the cut-out's shoulder. It doesn't hurt a bit that the revolver in question has one of the nicest actions in both double- and single-action I've ever used.

The wadcutters listed above are the first such bullets I've loaded in a long time. Those are for the Colt OMS primarily, but the S&W won't be shut out entirely from the soft stuff. I want to compare ranging ability of the WCs past 50 yards, the HBWCs have a rep for tumbling out past 60+ yards. I want to see if rifling twist makes a difference (Colt vs. S&W), or whether the heavier solid WCs stay point-forward better than do the hollowed-out target slugs.

[Forrest r]

Thank you for the explaining the difference between the bullets char-gar. I have the same double crimp groove on the 359640 mihec bullets/mold.

[9.3X62AL]

Not meaning to stray TOO FAR from the OP's question here.......but S&W took some time to get the 357 Magnum "right". Their original N-frame ideation used a relatively short cylinder similar to that found on their 38-44 series revolvers, and in my examples to date (Models 28, 27, and now pre-27) Lyman #358429 seated to crimp into the groove provided would be overlength for the cylinder's charge holes. Curiously, the Models 19 and 66--much lighter-framed variants--used a cylinder length longer than that found on their N-frame counterparts. Nice, as far as it goes--but there wasn't enough strength in the platform to exploit the increased powder capacity. FINALLY, in 1980 or thereabouts S&W got their act together with the L-frame series revolvers in the 581/681/586/686 models, combining cylinder length with adequate strength for an uncompromised 357 Magnum platform. The spirits of Springfield, MA move in strange ways.

[Char-Gar]

Some months back Lynn of Dry Creek Bullets send me some 358429 to test here in the South Texas heat. He was playing with a new lube and wanted see if it would take shipping and not run in the heat as it was rather soft. It proved to ship just fine, not run in the heat and did a super job of leaving a clean unleaded barrel.

I loaded some of these in 38 Special (12.5/2400) and others in 357 Mag cases with a higher charge of 2400. I fired these in my Smith Model 28 and had to seat the bullet to crimp over the bullet shoulder to get them not to stick out of front of the cylinder. These were the first I have tried in the 357 Mag case, when they did the same thing.

I have a four cavity Lyman 358156 and a single cavity HP version of them same that are my "go to" bullets for top end 357 Magnum loads. Mostly I just load down to 13.5/2400 and use the old Cramer #12 plain base bullet. I really have no need to load hot anymore.

I do load some hot 38 Specials for use in my 38-44 Heavy Duty and 357 Magnums. I use the 358156 HP over 7.5/AA5. this give about 1,100 fps out of a 4" bbl. These loads are not going to destroy a good modern K frame, but will shorten the service life with continued use.

Mostly I load many, many 38 Specials with 3.5/Bulleye over any good 150 to 160 grain plain base cast bullets, my favorite being 358311 RN. This is a good old fashion duplicate of the old police service round and will shoot to the sights of most any Colt or Smith and Wesson service pistol from back in the day. Fun to shoot, accurate all get out and easy on vintage sixguns.

In spite of it's itty bitty sight, my old eyes and being made in 1913 this old Smith M&P hits the target like a JDAM bomb. I just can't seem to miss. Best $90.00 I ever spent.

[Larry Gibson]

Oehler 43 is good setup. Not sure how bore cross-sectional area and throating of the TC barrel compares to the standard P/V test barrel, but if you have good history on your reference ammo it will yield useful results, though perhaps a bit lower P/T averages and gentler slope on the curve than the standard test barrel.

Not a gentler slope as such, just slightly, very slighty, lower pressure readings as the TC barrel dimensions are not to the minimum dimensions that SAAMI test barrels are. Pretty close though which is why the reference ammunition is used as even tthe SAAMI test barrels differ dimensionally and give different psi readings.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

I hope I look that good at age 100, though I doubt such longevity is in the cards. What a fine, old sixgun.......I'll bet it has some stories to tell, and I would enjoy hearing them.

[onceabull]

I made the mistake of value pricing a very nice 5" S&W md.10-? a number of years ago because it was a "made-up" revolver.( Original 4 incher rebarreled with factory 5" but not a S&W factory change..Haven't found one of similar quality YET at twice my idea of value...I tell myself it was a senior moment, but that isn't quite a Balm of Gilead remedy... Onceabull

[Char-Gar]

I made the mistake of value pricing a very nice 5" S&W md.10-? a number of years ago because it was a "made-up" revolver.( Original 4 incher rebarreled with factory 5" but not a S&W factory change..Haven't found one of similar quality YET at twice my idea of value...I tell myself it was a senior moment, but that isn't quite a Balm of Gilead remedy... Onceabull

I can't resist. Here is a 1931 S&W 5" Military and Police (38 Special). This handgun is the smoothest DA handgun I have ever held in my hand and shoots like a house-a-fire. This old girl is 82 years old and never had a face lift.

[9.3X62AL]

I was the grateful benefactor of Onceabull's senior moment, and that 5" Model 10 has the best action I've ever worked on a service-grade revolver. It shoots WONDERFULLY, as well. I'm glad to have it back in the safe, it was on hiatus at one of the daughters' homes to repel boarders. It took a Glock 23 swap to oblige its return. That Model 10's return to the fold prompted me to haul out a wadcutter mould (Lyman #358432) that hasn't been warmed for years and to pour a 1# coffee can of castings. Some of those were assembled into cases last week, atop 3.0 grains of WW-231. These await a moderation in weather for test-drive in the 5".

[BruceB]

That Onceabull is a caution, isn't he?

Some time back, he offered me an AS NEW Model 15 S&W (K-frame .38, 4" barrel)and I was SORELY tempted. MY wife and daughter had given me a new-condition 4" Model 19 for my birthday just a few weeks earlier, and I simply couldn't justify (in my own mind) another K-frame that was so similar..... even at the attractive price Bill was asking.

What I didn't know was that I would have nightmares for years afterwards, wondering why in blazes I didn't buy that lovely little .38.... I STILL have that problem from time to time.

Onceabull is truly one of those "pushers" we hear about.