Ponder me this; if loading a 38 SPL beyond its standard pressure is "bad" for use in a 357 revolver then how is it good to have +P++ loads for the 44SPL in stronger Ruger revolvers? or 2 stronger levels of 45 Colt loads for use in stronger revolvers? Or 2 or 3 stronger levels of 45-70 loads for stronger guns? Or the higher psi loads for the 6.5×55, 7×57 and other older cartridges for use in stronger "modern" actions?
Larry Gibson
It's personal preference. And there have been accidents from shooting Ruger only loads in a non Ruger. If you're confident you're labeling is sufficient then load to your hearts desire. I prefer use a little caution to stay on the safe side.
Personally, if you have a 357 just use 357 cases. Prevents possible cleaning issues from using 38 special cases. And there are no concerns w/ hot loads unless you push beyond published loads.
revolvers.
Last edited by gamma50; 08-27-2013 at 07:31 PM.
Gamma50, there is really little concern with the safety of .357-level loads in .38 Special cases being fired in *.357* firearms. The factories themselves came close to this before introduction of the .357 Magnum with what was then called the ".38-44 load". N frame S&Ws were the only intended firing platform for them. Your last post hints at that past practice. I know it's been done before because I have read Old Elmer's and Phil Sharpe's writings on the subject. Even have 1950s copies of Sharpe's reloading hardbound book and his "The Rifle in America" book, plus reading gunrag articles from Keith.Originally Posted by gamma50
The ape-**** "Nononononono!!!!!" is out of concern that one or more of those badly overloaded for .38 Special cases and loads will find its way into an older, or weaker, or older AND weaker .38 Special, with potentially disastrous results.
Except some of us here really don't care what happens to thieves. "Hey, dude, want some hot ammo for that hot sixgun you just stole? Only twice the price of ammo at Wally World, but no paper trail, either."
Evil grin.
Last edited by Grump; 08-27-2013 at 02:54 AM. Reason: Forgot to acknowledge info on tap about Keith and Sharpe.
Exactly, Those naysayers especially. Solely their personal preference. Nothing need be said beyond what Larry said, plus the injunction to mark the primers and label the boxes. Oh, and pay attention.
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
I don't think it is "bad" per se. The issue is the reliability of data when you go to far down this trail. Case in point is the "Skeeter" load of 358156 over 13.5/2400 in 38 Special cases. Of course the issue is which groove is the bullet crimped.
Ed Harris reports that when he was a Ruger, they pressure tested (lab equipment) this "Skeeter" load and it gave .357 Magnum proof pressures. It is hot stuff, but didn't seem that hot in my sixguns, but I realize the potential is there for some over the top pressures as the variables set in. There are as you know so many variables such as case make (commercial or GI), case type (regular or wadcutter) bullet type, alloy and size, and so on.
Like others I have shot the Skeeter load, but I think twice about it now. Skeeter did lots of things "back in the day" I would not do today. He like 15.5/2400 under 358156 (solid) and 16/2400 under 358156 (HP)
in 357 Magnum cases. These loads come right out of Lyman 41 Handbook.
You know about pressure testing and understand data that old loads should be suspect unless checked again with the equipment we have today.
Throw in the general state of ignorance about these things that are so pervasive on this board, and the mob that like to jump in to answer any question with antidotal information and you are setting the stage for problems.
I take the approach that, if a fellow is so inexperienced, he has to come to this board for permission to do something outside the box, then he should not do it. It he wants to play on the red line, he should wait until he has accumulated enough experience and knowledge to do his own thinking.
That is so much posturing, blather, shared ignorance and such around this board, I take a very conservative approach to this matter. If a guy is in my shop and I can supervise his loading and tweak his thinking, things work very different.
I have been handloading since 1958 and have never damaged a gun yet in a million reloads. However, as we look at this and other boards and read the number of "Kabooms" report, it send up a red flag about how much attention people are paying to these matters. I don't want to contribute, to any degree, to somebody injuring themselves or some poor sap unlucky enough to be standing close to them when they pull the pin on the grenade in their hands.
________________________________
Years ago, the Keith load of 358249/12.5/2400 (38 Special cases) was touted by the Sage of Salmon as just the thing. Both Kent Bellah, and Ken Waters found this load to be way over the top. Bellah has his N frame Smith drop open the cylinder after a cylinderful of this stuff. Waters and Bellah both felt 11/2400 was max under this bullet in Special cases.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 08-27-2013 at 11:38 AM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Two questions:
1. What do you want to kill, that you feel the need to push a 38 Special case that hard?
2. How many do you need to kill, that you need to load this in quality?
3. Why did you come here to ask about what you have ready decided to do?
4. Have you even seen a video or read about a man on a ledge and people around him telling him to jump? The folks telling you to do something don't always have your best interest at heart.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
velocity
Last edited by gamma50; 08-27-2013 at 07:32 PM.
I have thought about loading magnum level loads in .38 Special milsurp brass, mine is WRA, and decided against it. Magnum brass is easily obtained and inexpensive, at least before the latest panic.
One thing I do not see mentioned by gamma50 is the overall length of the cartridges. I also do not see mention of working up the load to the level of performance desired.
For just plinking, there isn't anything wrong with a .38 Special load in a .38 Special brass.
Personally, I would tell the kids "No brass, no ammo."
Robert
As for having gamma's best interest at heart speak only for yourself Chargar. You impugn our honor, sir.
FWIW unless you are involved with some very old, and even then except with the undersized "pocket" 38 specials, virtually all of them are proofed to take as much as the loads mentioned here as hot 38 loads (while not to take .357 loads). I've seen Colt officer's models thrive on mild .357 loads.
Not trying to start a fertilizer throwin' match here, jest sayin' that most things are magnified by the lack of actual knowledge that we/some have as to actual strength. I doubt a catastrophic blowup would occur in any but the weaker 38s if fed a .357 cartridge, though the gun might be ruined. Strengths of guns are widely mis guessed all the time here. Why should I for instance worry about some unknown person getting my load and putting it into his collectible 1905 4th change S&W? While the naysayers are technically right (if we don't load ANY ammo nobody will get hurt), and have a right to their opinions, Reality lies elsewhere. There's a difference between logic that totally avoids a certain thing, and actual knowledge of something. Also between avoidance without knowledge and what is reasonable.
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
[QUOTE=leftiye;2364362]As for having gamma's best interest at heart speak only for yourself Chargar. You impugn our honor, sir."
Wow...that sounds serious. Was that a slap with the glove to meet you on the Field of Honor for pistols at ten paces? I don't do swords anymore. I have not seen my copy of the Code Duelo since my last move. So, do I need to find a 2nd. or what?
You need a hobby, a vacation, a nap, a chill pill, a ham sandwich or something. This isn't life, it is only an internet gun board for Pete's sake.
Please note, I was not one of those who raised the issue of hot 38 Special loads getting into a weak revolver. That is not a concern of mine.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 08-27-2013 at 05:10 PM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
leftiye-
Charles is doing the exact thing he often accuses me of.......... It sounds like he knows more than anybody else on this subject and some others. Ignoring people like that does work.............
The board DOES have a children's section.
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
Well, that didn't work did it. Every time I try the "Socratic" method, I always become so subtle that folks miss the question. Let me just be direct...
Do you really need to load stuff that hot? Regular +P stuff is easier to hit with, easier on the ears, uses less powder and doesn't stress the shooter, gun or brass. This is just practice ammo right?
A couple of items of clarification, to wit;
1. I asked "what" you needed to kill, not "who" you needed to kill. I chose my words with care.
2. I have about 5,000 USGI 38 Special cases in my shop, along with 10,000 commercial cases. Thusly I am very familiar with them having loaded them since 1965 or so. The thicker brass does not necessarily mean they are stronger, or more suitable for high pressure loads. The thicker brass requires a reduction to powder charge to have to same pressure as you would have in a commercial case. i.e. the same charge will produce higher pressure in a GI case than in a commercial case. Something to consider.
3. I have now over a dozen Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers in 38 Special and seven more in 357 Magnum, and have had a couple dozen more over the years. I have been loading these rounds since 1962, and have loaded at least 250,000 rounds. Therefore I have some experience with the capabilities of various vintage and frame size revolvers chambered for these rounds.
I have no desire to convince you to do or not do anything. You are a grown man and can do as you wish. My counsel has been given and you can accept or reject it. It really doesn't matter which you do.
Best wishes for a long and safe life...
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
358429 was made to load .38-44 loads in .38 spl cases. I shot many of them out of a .357 Ruger in the early 70's when .357 brass was hard to find.
read sketer skelton. he loaded many hot loads in .38 cases.
There is load data for 38-44 loads for use in the N frame Smith & Wesson.
Something like the 5grain of Unique under a 155 grain boolit won't blow up a 38 gun and is no gallery load.
It's more than I shoot in my 38's. I have a few 38's and only one 357. Only thing that makes sense in my house is to place the 357 loads in 357 brass. Others situations will differ. I also have a closet full of forty year old loads. It's comforting for me to know I never hot-rodded any of them.
Well, been following this thread & all's I can say is, "Good Lord, please be careful!!!"
I also ended up with a question. I thought the bullets that had multiple crimp grooves had them to make the oal of the load shorter or longer? I also thought that they did nothing for 38spl's but let shorts cylinder'd revolvers in the 357's be able to use them. Is that correct or just a myth?
Again, please be careful!!! I'm sure you know how to work loads up & will find a +p++++/357 load using 38spl cases. I'm just concerned that some of them might find there way into someones hands that have a cheap beater 38spl that wasn't even designed to use p+ ammo & end's up injured.
I load 38-44 loads in cases marked +P+ and I mark the cartridge container that they are to be used in official police, officers model, trooper and .357 chambered guns. That currently is the only high powered load that COULD cause damage if it was fired in a alloy agent. I used to have some Ruger 45 Colt loads for my Anaconda but I fear if I pass on too soon, someone in the family would use those in one of my Colt SAA and that could be bad. The Winchester military 38 special brass had only a mild crimped in primer that did not require it to be removed upon reloading. The LC 38 special brass that I have requires that the heavy crimp be removed.
Keith's and Skelton's loads came from a different era. They had heavy frame guns to use, plenty of them along with some weak ones. Handgun brass from the 30's, 40's and early 50's wasn't the best stuff and most wouldn't hold a crimp as well as brass since the 70's. If you know what an early SH (solid head) marked case looks like inside, you'll understand. They were lighter and had more room in them. Keith would have used them more the Skelton though and Skelton used his loads in the 357 when he got one because 357 cases were hard to get (that's from his writings). Read a compilation of both men's works to get an idea of what they did.
As I understand the issue of the two crimp grooves on 358156 is to (1) allow the bullet to be crimped in the top one for 357 cases in 357 revolvers, or (2)38 Special cases in 38 Special revolvers. The bullet could be crimped in in the bottom groove (3) in 38 Special cases for use in .357 Magnum revolvers giving the same overall lengths as no 1 above. This enabled the bullet to enter the throat of the 357 Magnum revolver without a jump from the shorter Special cases.
This bullet was designed by Ray Thompson and has been perhaps the most successful cast bullet design for use in the 357 Magnum sixgun. NOTE: Thompson did not design the bullets to be seated out in the 38 Special case in order to give the same powder capacity as the longer magnum case.
Unfortunately, it didn't take long for folks to discover that seated out in Special cases, they did in fact have the same powder capacity as the longer magnum case, and that is just what they did. They fly in the ointment is there are so many types, ages and makes of Special cases and none of them were designed to hold magnum pressure. Do, people do it? Yes, they do. Do people suffer bad consequences? Not to often, but ruptured and split cases are not uncommon. Gas pressure does get turned loose in the cylinder when this happens.
The long vs. short cylinder thing most likely comes from 358429 which was designed by Elmer Keith for the 38 Special and it works well for that use. When the 357 Magnum came along in 1935 folks started to use it in those revolvers. That resent no trouble in the Colt New Service and Colt SSA as their cylinders were longer than the Smith and Wesson 357 Magnum (later Model 27). In the Smith the bullet has to be seated deeper and crimped over the shoulder to fit into cylinder. This deep seating causes an increase in pressure vis-a-vi the shorter Thompson bullet (358156) which had less bullet body in the case.
I hope that is not to confusing, the bottom line is;
1. 358156 was designed for use in the 357 Magnum cylinder (Colt or Smith) with either Special or Magnum cases. But it was not designed or intended to enable the loader to use Magnum charges in Special cases.
2. 358429 was designed for the Special case, and does not work all that well in the 357 Magnum sixgun. It will work, but there are better choices.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
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