Making 30 Cal Dies

[bangerjim]

I have use 5C's (64th set) for everything in my big lathe. In my small precision lathe I use 3C's (again 64th's) since it's headstock AND tailstock are bored and made for 3C.

If you have a Buck-style 5C chuck coming, that is all you need. Zeroing it in to low run-out will be fun but can be done with a little patience. I took hardened reversible top jaw 6" 4 jaw and 8" standard 3 jaw (both scroll chucks) units and modified them for "zero-set" so now I get better tolerances with them than my 5C chuck! Can you say 0.0002 runout on a 3 or 4 jawed chuck? Really nice. But 5C's are still used a lot for various thing in the lathes and mills.

I also have the main sizes of square and hex 3C's as I work with that bar stock a lot in the work I do.

Good find on the lathe. As I have always said about REAL lathes, they come in two sizes: good old big uns and big old good uns!

bangerjim

[Cane_man]

Caneman: I just started reading this thread and got all excited. Last Monday a 1945 10x24 Logan followed me home. Got three jaw and four jaw chucks, quick change tool post, rocker tool post with six tool holders, 11 MT3 collets & drawbar for the MT3 spindle nose, dead centers & some other stuff. Got a 5C collet chuck on the way. Reading this thread lets me realize what can be done with this amazing machine. Gone are the days of using my milling machine as a lathe. If you can, give me your thoughts on using the MT3 collets on work up to 3/4in (max for MT3 collets) and the 5C chuck for anything larger. Maybe I should use the 5C for everything round.

Bob

congrats on the Logan, you will not regret it! i absolutely love my 1945 Logan 210, sounds like you may have got a similar model? you must have gotten a really good deal considering all that came with the lathe... i just acquired a quick change gear box and will be adding it to my lathe this summer when i get some extra time

My lathe did not come with the collet draw bar so i have not been able to use collets with it yet, so i dont have any opinion on using the MT3 collets...

glad you are excited about the thread, that was the purpose of documenting this work so that others would start doing it as well and we could share information...

[Cane_man]

Thanks, bangerjim!

I believe you. It could certainly be operator error or lack of patience on my part. Part of being a lathe newbie is expectations that things will just work.

I'll keep at it.

squish, i tried threading the 7/8-14 on my CML, biggest problem I had was rigidity and the tool post flexing... seems like it would start to feed alright, but at some point it would flex and dig into the part and bind the lathe up! got tired of that real fast, but have not tried threading yet on my 10x24, probably get to it this summer... let me know when you get your new old iron lathe, just love to see pics of these old timers...

[Twmaster]

I thread 3/4-16 on my CML all the time. I also use a hand crank. So much better than trying to get that little motor to do the right thing.

Two things to keep in mind on the tooling while thread cutting on a CML, well, three actually.

Keep the compound cranked as far back over the pivot point of the crossslide/compound axis as you can. Do not over extend the tool out of the tool post. Keep it in as tight as is practical. Also, use larger tooling. Instead of 1/4" shank, go with 5/16" or 3/8th shanks.

Here's a photo of the hand crank I made. It slips into the outboard end of the spindle. Tighten the drawbar and it's tight.

[bangerjim]

Twmaster is correct...........try to eliminate ANY large tooling overhangs when doing ANY turning! Close and tight is what you are after, even on big heavy solid lathes. Nice thing about the handle and no-power approach is you can make many cuts that will chatter with power feed and will NOT chatter with handle feed. I find when doing radius cuts with 1/4 to 5/8" radius carbide cutters, the final cuts I do by hand and there is NO chatter....just perfect shiny surfaces!

Sometimes you have to have tool overhang to get the job done...........just take it easy and use light cuts. Don't try for 0.1 hogging cuts!

Keep makin' those chips!

banger

[Cane_man]

Let the lapping begin!!!!

all the different grits sizes of lapping compounds ready to go, from 100 to 8,000 grit:



the tool holder i made for the reamers is also used to hold the brass laps, just load a little compound on the lap and it is good to go:



...and get to lapping! i try to insert the lap inside the die about 1/3 of the way in and hold for several seconds, insert another 1/3 and hold, and finally all the way and hold... my little 7x12 CML is perfect for lapping as it rotates at 2000 rpm and i do no want to subject my precious Logan lathe to this mess!



do this for about 2 minutes, then pull the lap out wipe it off, recharge with lapping compound and repeat:



the lap fits snugly inside he die at first, then after a while it will start to feel loose in there, and that is the time to use the next largest size lap... i have 4 sizes of laps: 0.270, 0.275, 0.278. and 0.280... i will coarse lap to about 0.282 then heat treat and have another 0.002 or so to fine lap and work out any warpage or surface anomalies generated during heat treating... the entire lapping process takes 4 or 5 hours, particularly the last 0.001 where i will be testing out seated cores and measuring as i go along to determine when i am finished...

[plus1hdcp]

Thanks for the pictures as they provide a great insight to where you are at in the process for a aspiring machinist. This thread has taught me a lot.

[Cane_man]

alright, here is the latest progress, i started rough lapping and when i could insert the 0.279 probe I decided to heat treat the pointing die, all well so far... then after tempering i start lapping again and i wanted to see where the die was at in terms of bullet OD, so i decided to put a seated core up there even though i do not have the eject punch started let alone finished yet! kind of like a kid on Christmas morning because you want to see where the die is at and what the bullet looks like, well here is the progress so far, i could not even get the bullet up the die all the way and i broke the make shift punch i was using and the bullet got stuck in the die!

note: that is not the final meplat size



so as you can see there is much more lapping to do in order to get to about 0.2838-0.2842 or so! you can see that the bullet only got about halfway up the ogive as the meplat should be the same size as that wire sticking out! you can also see the screw in the base of the bullet that i used to get the stuck bullet out... if you get into this game of die making you better learn how to remove stuck bullets from the pointing die... my method is to chuck the die in the lathe, drill out the shank of the bullet to accept some type of screw, then put the die back in the press and clamp some pliars on the screw and tap the pliars with a hammer and the stuck case comes out:



looks like i have another 0.0025 to lap out, probably a few hours work using 5000 and 8000 grit, back to work!

[Cane_man]

getting closer, this is after about 45' of lapping, 0.2826:



this is also after another 45' of lapping, ogive looks encouraging, 0.2833:



probably another 45' or so with 8,000 diamond paste and i will be real close, would like to hit 0.2842 and then size them down in a push through sizer to 0.2839 to allow for some springback...

i am having eject problems with this 4/64 (0.0625) punch and may have to step it up to a 6/64 (0.09375) punch... got some 3/32 piano wire ordered (ASTM 228) and I will have to make a new punch for it... the corbins website recommends 3/32 for 7mm so i may have to go this route...

[Cane_man]

real close now!!!

only a few 0.0001 away from finishing... still having eject problems but i have not used the larger diameter music wire yet, and it gave me a chance to incorporate a spring in the eject punch as suggested earlier in this thread, i will update the drawing once i get finished with this pointing die... really liking this 6S ogive, OAL length is approximately 1.1", and the weight varies bewteen 138gr ~ 140gr, can't wait to shoot them this summer:

[Cane_man]

i am claiming victory, finally, after almost 9 months! here is the first decent one to come out with the ejection punch, its a little rough and will get cleaned up with the final sizer die and some vibratory tumbling with ceramic media, but i think they might have half a chance of being decent practice rounds and maybe achieve MOA at 100 yards... remember, this bullet started life as a 9mm range pickup case!



all the heavy lifting is done, just need to do the cleanup items for this project: finalize eject punch for pointing die, sizer die, and possibly a meplat trimmer

[hardcase54]

Looks good, have been following this thread from the start. Good on you Cane Man

[Twmaster]

That's not a hateful looking pill there Cane-Man. Now to see how they shoot.

If there was one (or more) steps you'd change in making these what would you change?

[plus1hdcp]

Did you go with the larger wire for the ejector? Congrats on getting the die to eject and we expect a range report soon.

[Cane_man]

tdub - i would not waste time making a d-reamer, using my new heavier lathe it was sufficienct to step drill and then ream with the 2-flute reamer for the pointing die, also i think i need to remove the primers from the cases before drawing as the primers have a tendency to separate off the case when fired (at least that has been my experience with shooting 10mm swaged bullets)...

plus - thanks! have not used the 3/32 wire yet on the eject punch, this one was pushed out with the 1/16 but i had to pull it off the eject wire... it is clear to me that the 1/16" wire wont work, it is just too weak... i will post a pic of the new drawing for the eject punch once i get the 3/32 carbide bit next week to drill out the die and make the new punch... i have a new simpler design using a spring and just stock 1/4" 1144

wont be able to make it to the range for several weeks, might even be July before I get there!

[Cane_man]

i finally got the pointing die lapped out to final dimensions like i wanted:



then i made a sizing die, this is real simple push thru die and the stop punch made for core sizing is used, but a new push thru punch had to be made... it is so simple i am not posting a drawing for it... i will get a detail drawing and pic of the new eject punch for the pointing die with the spring, but it will be later...

one tool that really made a difference with making this sizing dies is the use of a commercial brass barrel lap, made by Acro Lap, cost is about $10 for the brass barrel and the holder/adjuster, the brass barrels are replaceable for about $3 a piece:



very simple to use, twist the screw on the end to increase the diameter of the lap, load it up and you are good to go, got the final bullet sizer to 0.2838:



here is the final sized bullet, and you can see the two different eject wires i used here, the 3/32 (0.09375) on the left and the 1/16 (0.0625) on the right, the larger wire made a big difference for ejecting the bullet:



well, the bullet came out OK, but not what i really wanted so i decided i wanted to to make a new 8S pointing die with the 5/64" meplat (0.078125 and in the middle of the two sizes already tried) and i think that will give a longer look for the ogive and a better meplat, so that is what i am working on now...

i made the new 8S brass laps (i theorized that the 6S reamer would be OK since I am lapping out approximately 0.005 and the laps would form the new ogive just fine), have the die reamed out and heat treated, and now i am completing the final lapping and may be done in a few days

[DAVE A]

Nice work
Is there any particular reason for making the bullets oversize and then sizing down ?

[Cane_man]

I like the idea of running the bullet thru the sizer 3 or 4 times at the end just as a precaution that I did not make any mistakes, and it gives me peace of mind that the bullet is sized properly before I run it down the barrel...

[garandsrus]

I like the idea of running the bullet thru the sizer 3 or 4 times at the end just as a precaution that I did not make any mistakes, and it gives me peace of mind that the bullet is sized properly before I run it down the barrel...

Nice job on the pointing die! How could a bullet be too large coming out of the die? Corbin doesn't resize bullets after pointing and I don't see any reason to unless you want to change them to a smaller caliber.

John

[Cane_man]

Nice job on the pointing die! How could a bullet be too large coming out of the die? Corbin doesn't resize bullets after pointing and I don't see any reason to unless you want to change them to a smaller caliber.

John

Thank you.

Remember, I am oversizing the pointing die just a little as part of my design... The bullet will be the same diameter as the die, so if the die is lapped to 0.2841 then the bullet will come out that way, but because of imprecision in homemade dies there will be some out of roundness, and so the sizer takes care of this really well and also gives me peace of mind that the final OD is just right...

the pros who make dies for a living don't worry about this, but for the hobbyist like me I don't like the idea of making a mistake and having a KABOOM, so I have some redundancies built in to account for any mistakes I may make along the way...