Making 30 Cal Dies

[Cane_man]

i decided to go ahead and purchase a 30-06 (edit: and a 7mm-08) at the end of the year so i can deer hunt with my son next year who will be living in Wyoming... my reason as that my .243 Win was fine here for our smaller California Mulies in the southern Sierra, but the winds and larger Rocky Mountain Mulies could not be had as easily with that caliber... anyway, right or wrong that was my story and i am good to go

so, i am going to start planning to make some 30 caliber dies this winter (edit: and 7mm dies)... not quite as easy to make as 9mm to .40SW, or .22LR to 0.224, at least that is how it looks from here at the beginning of this project... i like to swage mainly because it gives me a feeling of independence from market or governmental forces and shortages, and that is just plain feels good to shoot homemade with dies you made ... with that perspective in mind i would like these 30 cal swaged bullets to follow these parameters:

1) this will be a hunting bullet and plinking/practice, not BR... looking at 150gr to 180gr, not sure on exact size just yet... also want to flexibility to make 125gr for 300 Blackout... MOA at 100 yards would be the goal...

2) Use readily available jackets - for me this means range brass... in particular i like the idea of drawing down 9mm cases... i know you can use soft copper tubing to swage or draw the jackets, but now i am dependent upon the availability of soft copper tubing which is abundant right now but it may not be at some point in time... but it seems like 9mm range brass is far cheaper and abundant... for example, you can buy soft copper tubing in bulk for about $1 per foot, and perhaps you can get 11 jackets per foot, that is about $0.09 per jacket (not including trimming, and associated costs for that)... you can find used 9mm brass in bulk for about $0.03 a case... seems like case closed to me! hopefully, once the 9mm jacket is drawn down to size it wont have to be trimmed, but that is yet to be determined... also, because untrimmed brass will be used, with the casehead not removed, this precludes a BT and a FB design will be used (i think it would be difficult to form a BT base on a bullet casehead)... bullets lengths are approximately 1.2", 9mm bras is approximately 0.72", i am not sure how much they lengthen when being drawn...

3) use readily availabe cores - i dont want to be dependent upon a source for lead wire, so i will be casting boolits to use as cores... i think a 7mm rifle mold would work great... a 0.285 diameter bullet should drop right in a 0.306 jacket, and the 120gr cast boolit can be trimmed to size for whatever weight swaged bullet is being made... a 120gr + 60gr 9mm jacket = 180gr 30 cal swaged bullet...

4) this will be done using a standard reloading press, in particular my RCBS RC Supreme will be used... i cant afford a dedicated swaging press as these die sets home-made in part due to economy...


to get started seems like the biggest challenge, outside of the point forming die is making the draw dies... these will be similar to the push thru derimming dies used for 22LR... 9mm case OD is approximately 0.380, and it needs to be drawn down to 0.305 or so to allow for core seating to 0.307 and then point forming to 0.308... so i need to draw down 0.075... obviously this can't be done in 1 step, manually at least on a swaging press! perhaps this can be done in 3 or 4 steps? i understand that the brass gets work hardened each time it is drawn, so will it need to be annealed after every 1st or 2nd draw? can i use just one punch tapered to about 0.285 for the drawing?

alright, anyone who has thought about doing this or done this please weigh in... thanks

here is a great thread on this from "Mountain Prepper":

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...to-308-jackets


UPDATE August 2014:

here are the finished 7mm 135gr home swaged bullets (left is Speer 145gr I was trying to copy, right is my version):



and they grouped in at under MOA!!!



.

[Jupiter7]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...m-die-progress!

Thought you may wanna peruse thi thread, pics of BT's 9mm/30cal dies and bullets in there. I believe his set ended up at 5 dies. Good luck, Im right there with ya on this being the best route for self sufficiency. Might give u some insight on core sizes and weights.

[Cane_man]

^^^ thanks Jupiter, i will look into it, maybe BT will weigh in and share some insights

here is the final product i have in mind, this is taken from the midwayusa website of the Berger 150gr FBHP:



note: do you notice the small folds on the ogive made while point forming? and this is from a production bullet! ha ha ha, you don't notice these things until you start swaging your own, and if you study all the different pics of production bullets you will see that it is quite common makes you feel a little better about your own

[sprinkintime]

Cane Man; I think you will find that making a set of 30cal swaging dies is much easier than 224's, I made two sets, because the first set I didn't machine the point die up far enough so it would only make about a 125gr so I made a second one that will go to 180+ also went boattail and that is something you should try, makes such a beautiful boolit.
Sprink

[customcutter]

Cane,

I don't remember how you made your de-rimming die for 22lr, and maybe you already know this. For the draw dies I would make "die holders" and then insert drill bushings in the appropriate sizes. You can either leave a shoulder in the "die holder" or buy the drill bushings with shoulders on them. That will keep them from being pushed through the die as you as drawing the brass.

I wonder if the lines in the Berger bullet are there to assist in the "mushrooming" effect. I've never hunted with them, but a friend has and I've seen pictures of deer that he shot with a 7mm08, massive bleeding and trauma. I've seen lots of deer shot with everything from .243, 6.5X55, 7mm mag, .308, and 30-06, occasionally one would have similar blood loss, wound.

Don't know about you but when hunting I like to use the best bullets, cartridges, etc. available. To me it's the cheapest investment of the whole experience. I load tungsten (2X heavier than lead) for my turkey hunting, it cost almost $80/lb, that's $10 per shot, not counting load development, sighting in etc. But I went from 100 hits in 10" at 40 yds to 400 hits in 10" at 40 yds. There's nothing even close available on the market. But I also know how great the feeling is to know you've taken game with a cartridge or shell that you've loaded yourself. With all that said I'm 100% behind you, can't wait to see pics of the dies and game you take with the bullets.

CC

[Cane_man]

Cane Man; I think you will find that making a set of 30cal swaging dies is much easier than 224's, I made two sets, because the first set I didn't machine the point die up far enough so it would only make about a 125gr so I made a second one that will go to 180+ also went boattail and that is something you should try, makes such a beautiful boolit.
Sprink

hey Sprink, did you use 9mm brass? if so i would appreciate details: number of draws, size of punch, etc.

i agree those BT bases are great looking, and perhaps i can make it work, not sure just yet...

[Cane_man]

Cane,

I don't remember how you made your de-rimming die for 22lr, and maybe you already know this. For the draw dies I would make "die holders" and then insert drill bushings in the appropriate sizes. You can either leave a shoulder in the "die holder" or buy the drill bushings with shoulders on them. That will keep them from being pushed through the die as you as drawing the brass.

I wonder if the lines in the Berger bullet are there to assist in the "mushrooming" effect. I've never hunted with them, but a friend has and I've seen pictures of deer that he shot with a 7mm08, massive bleeding and trauma. I've seen lots of deer shot with everything from .243, 6.5X55, 7mm mag, .308, and 30-06, occasionally one would have similar blood loss, wound.

Don't know about you but when hunting I like to use the best bullets, cartridges, etc. available. To me it's the cheapest investment of the whole experience. I load tungsten (2X heavier than lead) for my turkey hunting, it cost almost $80/lb, that's $10 per shot, not counting load development, sighting in etc. But I went from 100 hits in 10" at 40 yds to 400 hits in 10" at 40 yds. There's nothing even close available on the market. But I also know how great the feeling is to know you've taken game with a cartridge or shell that you've loaded yourself. With all that said I'm 100% behind you, can't wait to see pics of the dies and game you take with the bullets.

CC

cc, i like that idea but how does the bushing stay inside the threaded body and keep from falling out? i understand a shoulder to keep them from being pushed out the top...

i dont plan to hunt with these swaged 30 cal... i have the same philosophy you have and try to use the best i can afford and make work with my rifle... in Kommie-fornia where i hunt i have to use all kremlin approved non-lead copper bullets, fortunately the Barnes TSX i use works really well and have good accuracy... these swaged 30 cal are for practice and SHTF potential barter/use i would like to say that i know how well they take down deer but i have not tagged out yet in my life! this will be my 3rd deer season (i got started late in life, self taught), and the area i hunt near my house (one hour drive away) has a 5% tagout rate, very crowded, not a large deer population, on public land... it is what it is no sob story here, i see it as another challenge to be conquered...

i went scouting last week and jumped a 5 point, 4 point, and forked horn all in velvet and summer red coats... they are there but the aliens seems to abduct them on opening day once the first shot is fired and they go missing! these deer like to hang out on top of the mountain where there is lots of browse/shade/springs/cooler temps, the top also has a network of dirt roads on it giving road hunters easy access, and my theory is that when the season starts the deer feel the pressure and come down off the peak to the lower foothills to hide out... what was cool is that these two larger bucks were hunter educated and wary, and when they saw me they ran off pogo sticking and i saw their escape route! they didn't go over the ridge like i thought but stotted down this canyon where there are no roads below... they were bedded in the shade about 20 yards uphill from me yet they ran straight down across my position to this draw instead of running up and away, i always see the does and spikes run uphill from danger but not these guys... my thought is on opening weekend to position myself lower where these escape canyons are and let the road hunters drive them to me! nice theory anyway and fun to dream about and hope it is that easy

[303british.com]

^^^ thanks Jupiter, i will look into it, maybe BT will weigh in and share some insights

here is the final product i have in mind, this is taken from the midwayusa website of the Berger 150gr FBHP:



note: do you notice the small folds on the ogive made while point forming? and this is from a production bullet! ha ha ha, you don't notice these things until you start swaging your own, and if you study all the different pics of production bullets you will see that it is quite common makes you feel a little better about your own

I know that the big companies try to polish most of the creases out. They aren't always successful. I guess they don't like the look, but hey, that's what happens when you bend a jacket into a point.

[Cane_man]

initial thoughts on drawing down a 9mm case:

-hardest draw will be the 1st draw when it is derimmed just like a 22LR is, the 9mm case is about 0.390 so perhaps the first draw should be 0.380 or so just for derimming

-after that perhaps three steps from 0.380 to 0.305, thats 0.025 per draw and seems like a lot and not sure if it is possible

-probably have to anneal after each draw if using a reloading press like i am

[customcutter]

When I used the drill bushing, I measured the OD of the bushing then bored out my pocket in the die. As long as you keep a tight tolerance (.001-.002), it will be what is called a "press fit". Worse case scenario, use a little lock tite to hold it in. I agree, sooner or later we won't be able to buy "components". I probably could have bought more bullets than I'll ever shoot, with what I've spent trying to make dies, but I like to be self reliant. Plus I'm learning machining skills, I hope.

I hunted public land till I was almost 40, then I finally could afford to join a lease. Completely different story, learn what they are feeding on at that time of year, where they are bedding, like you said escape routes. Usually the thicker the better for the bigger deer, unless it's the rut. That's another thing, always try to be in the woods when the rut is going on. Bucks get completely stupid. Now I'm hunting my in-laws ranch in Alabama, for turkey. I'll take a rifle at Thanksgiving and try to get a deer or coyote if it's not freezing cold and 30MPH winds. I also like portable climbers, for getting up off the ground and seeing more. I see way more deer now than when we used to drive the deer with dogs. You're also right about letting other hunters drive the deer to you. Be the first one into the woods and try staying as late in the morning as you can, those other hunters will drive the deer past you.

[sprinkintime]

Cane Man; no I tried 9mm to much problems and Dies for drawing, I am using RCE jackets, for me the price is right
compared to the extra time in drawing those 9's. The hardest part is making the punch, they are so thin if you don't go to a rebated BT, and I didn't. I only make the boatails on 168gr. + on my flat bottoms are 150 or less.
Sprink

[Forrest r]

I found that the 32acp cases work best for making 30cal bullets.

Some plinking bullets 165gr sp 308's.

Attachment 79378

It best to do 4 draws, the smaller the dia the thicker/longer the brass base gets. I also had to anneal the brass twice, 1st time to begin the drawing & for the last draw. The cores need to be .250" or less.

I like the lead nosed bullets for the 30cal, the die can easily be adjusted to make 110gr pills to 220gr thumpers.

good luck

[Stephen Cohen]

I don't swage projectiles, but what I do know is from reading on this site. Last year I wanted some projectiles to form some 375 Whelen shells. my answer was to run some cleaned and annealed 9mm shells through a push through die, I then filled them with shot and hit them with a torch this melted lead and annealed case, I then put them into a 243 sizing die to give them a bit of an orgive and gave them a run through the push through sizer again. Now they were not pretty but they did the job and shot into an inch and a half at 30mtrs. I have since thought that good bullets could be made with 9mm if one didn't over think the project, what would be wrong with a nice flat point with large metplate, seems it would be easier to make the nose forming die and and a larger stronger diameter ejection pin could be used. I may be wrong in my thoughts but it just seems like it would be easier than trying to make a conventional type nose form die for plinking and close range hunting.

[Cane_man]

I found that the 32acp cases work best for making 30cal bullets.

Some plinking bullets 165gr sp 308's.

Attachment 79378

It best to do 4 draws, the smaller the dia the thicker/longer the brass base gets. I also had to anneal the brass twice, 1st time to begin the drawing & for the last draw. The cores need to be .250" or less.

I like the lead nosed bullets for the 30cal, the die can easily be adjusted to make 110gr pills to 220gr thumpers.

good luck

Forrest, how did you make your draw dies, and do they fit in a standard reloading press?

i was thinking the HF 1 ton arbor press would be perfect for drawing down the 9mm to 0.305, but how would you attach the dies and punch?



i am looking into some used taper crimp dies for the draw downs, is the drawing too much pressure for a reloading press?

[Cane_man]

I don't swage projectiles, but what I do know is from reading on this site. Last year I wanted some projectiles to form some 375 Whelen shells. my answer was to run some cleaned and annealed 9mm shells through a push through die, I then filled them with shot and hit them with a torch this melted lead and annealed case, I then put them into a 243 sizing die to give them a bit of an orgive and gave them a run through the push through sizer again. Now they were not pretty but they did the job and shot into an inch and a half at 30mtrs. I have since thought that good bullets could be made with 9mm if one didn't over think the project, what would be wrong with a nice flat point with large metplate, seems it would be easier to make the nose forming die and and a larger stronger diameter ejection pin could be used. I may be wrong in my thoughts but it just seems like it would be easier than trying to make a conventional type nose form die for plinking and close range hunting.

hi Stephen, i think a wide flat meplat would work fine for short range hunting and plinking... but the real fun with these dies for me is making something that looks as close as possible to the production bullets and a big part of that is making the point forming die... sort of like obsessive compulsive disorder for swaging, but to each his own

[Prospector Howard]

Cane, I did what you're planning so I'll tell what I did in case you're interested. The only difference is I did it for my 8mm k-98 instead of going all the way to 30 cal. The draw dies are the biggest headache in this. I did 3 dies in equal draws to get down to .321. I tried doing the 1st die in the press, and nearly broke my classic cast press. X that idea. Put a nut on the die and put it on a block of wood and drove it through with a hammer, (better idea). Went and bought some short 1 inch diameter grade 8 bolts and used them instead of 7/8 inch, they would be stronger and they won't be going in the press anyway. I also wanted a bigger base to put on the block of wood. I routered out a small area the shape of the head of the bolt, so it won't move around; and drilled a hole in the middle so it could go through into the wood. After drilling the initial hole through the bolt I used a 22 degree RCBS VLD reamer to make the angle pretty shallow so it starts easy. There were some machining lines left by the reamer so I used a half round needle file to smooth it out before lapping to final size. I also take the rim off the 9mm case in the lathe before drawing, so it goes through easier. I also had to make 3 different size punches, because it shrinks inside with each draw. The inside of the cases are tapered too, so you have watch that also. With this method I've found I only have to anneal once at the begining. The rest of the dies are the same as the .223 dies you've aleady made. The only other thing I did was make a final sizer die to make sure every bullet is uniform. These bullets are really labor intensive, so I don't make very many. I just figured I'd try it, so I could use the 9mm brass for something after I couldn't reload them anymore.

[Cane_man]

thanks for the tips Howard, i appreciate it... i picked up a used 0.356 taper crimp die and i am going to see how my press can handle this for the first draw... if it seems to overload the press then i may look into the HF arbor press and see if i can Okie rig something up with it...

[Forrest r]

I use the same hf 1 ton press, use it to swage 9mm's down for 357 jackets & 32acp's down for 30cal jackets. I also use the press to make pb & standard gc's.

I also use bolts, 7/8-14 grade 5, bought a bunch of them awhile back & use them to make swaging dies for jackets & to size lead boolits. Just put a washer under the bolt when you use them in an arbor press.

P howard is correct I also use 3 draws to get to .323", the 1st draw id down to .354", I can use the same draw die for 32acp or 9mm's. He is also correct about having the right size push pin, too big & the brass will press/weld itself to the pin. Too small & the brass base can & will distort causing fliers. I anneal the brass again for the 4th/last draw, I can really tell the difference when I swage them. The brass web of the case is well over 1/4" thick by then. Use the same lube you've been using on your 224's on the brass & push pins.

I anneal the bolts & drill them out to the rough size of the draw dai. Then I used #6 & 7 taper pin reamers (depending on draw dia again) to taper the draw die. When I find where the taper ends at the right dia, I counter bore/drill the bottom of the draw die & then final lap/polish the draw die.

I won't get into re-hardening the bolt/push pin or moly treating the final product, you know how to do those things in your sleep.

I don't know the #'s off of the top of my head, if you need them I can measure what the 4 draw dies I made to do the 30cal jackets along with their push pin sizes to give you some ballpark #'s that you can use to fine tune your own draw dies.

Yes these take some work to do/make but making your own jackets out of copper tubing is a 5 or 6 step process also.

The 9mm brass will give you a longer jacket but that didn't matter to me because I went with a simple lead nose design. This winter I plan on making a pointed hp nose forming die & a swc hp nose forming die. The lead noses are super simple to make/use/shoot.

I'm excited to see you wanting to tackle the 30cals!!!! Most swages do the .224's, there a lot easier to do.

On a side note:
I like the lead bullet/ 1/2 jacket style of bullets & the range brass laying around is perfect for this.

Some 147gr .357's that I also resize to .355 for the 9mm for the 9mm & 38spl/357mag.

Attachment 79424

Some 220gr .429's made from 40s&w cases for the 44spl/mag.

Attachment 79425

And some 205gr .451's made from 40s&w cases for the 45acp.

Attachment 79426

I plan on making some different nose forming dies this winter when I get time to try/test some different nose profiles.

[Cane_man]

how can i drill a hole, that is on center, on the bottom of the ram so i can put a punch in it?

i am limited to using a cheap bench top drill press, and a chines lathe that does not have a large enough bore to fit the ram through it...

[Cane_man]

for $10 more Enco sells this one and the end of the ram is already drilled out, done deal:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...PMPXNO=3463252