.40 S&W severe leading problem. Help a newbie out?

[Mactrekr]

Ok, so, the condensed version; I am casting using the 2 cavity 175gr, single band Lee .40 cal tic mould. The product is clean, no frosting, no wrinkling. I'm using 90-95% WW! 5-10% lead tape weights, smelted into ingots. Water quenching every cast. Lee 4-20 pot. I'm loading using Winchester standard small pistol rivers and 5.0gr Accurate #2. Firearm is a compact, 3.25-ish barreled Taurus PT-140. Lubed with Lee Alox, sized using the Lee .401 sizing die, then lubed again with the Alox.I took out 5 rds, accuracy appears to be spot on, (judging by eye and mucho experience), but the lead left in the barrel looks like a VE Day ticker tape parade. The recoil was not extreme, but hotter than I am used to with factory or previous JHP loads I've done. I don't have the ability to test hardness at this juncture. Thought? Gratitude.

[500MAG]

What part of the barrel are you seeing the leading? Or most of the leading?

[RobS]

More info: I assume your COAL is around 1.100-1.200? You are up on charge wt. with the quicker AA#2 powder. I would load at the minimum of the reloading manual(s) and work up. What is the groove diameter of the barrel these boolits are going down? Also have you pulled a dummy round and measured the very edge of the base of the boolit to ensure it is at the intended diameter? Did you clean your barrel of all copper fowling before you shot the cast boolits?

[popper]

Hard alloy, Alex, hot load.

[Mactrekr]

Ok, so the majority of the leading appears to be about 2/3rds of the way down the barrel. Much to my embarrassment, I did not give the barrel a thorough cleaning prior to testing. I haven't checked my COAL, my digital calipers took a ****, (high quality from Harbor Freight) I will load down to minimums and start over. Gratitude for all the insight.

[Mactrekr]

Hard alloy, Alex, hot load.

Popper, can you elaborate?

[454PB]

My guess is that the Lee Alox is not doing the job, and/or the barrel wants a bigger boolit. Measure the barrel, and measure the boolits after sizing. Some of my Lee sizers produce a slightly smaller boolit than advertised. Unless you're very experienced with measuring tools, a caliper is inaccurate for measuring boolit diameter. A good micrometer is much better.

[RobsTV]

Never could get rid of leading with fast powder in 40 S&W using that boolit, no matter the load or lead hardness, and your powder is even faster. Switching to something around the speed of WSF cured this, and now using Silhouette (WAP), with similar good results. The high pressure 40 S&W was designed to use slower mid range powders like WAP.

[HATCH]

Its funny that you are dropping them in water yet you add pure lead to soften them up?
Run pure WW with no extra lead.
You can still water drop them.

When I fire 40's out of my factory glock barrel, I will get the same type leading. But when I switch barrels to my lone wolf barrel i don't get any leading.

Respond back with the load you are using (powder, grains?)
Also it does help to know your inside barrel diameter.

[randyrat]

I shot a bunch of bunches of 40 cal and it was a tough one... Your getting accuracy but have lead issues..I would try a different lube any kind but Alox...I'm sure if you were to send me your name and address, I would send you a free sample of lube and instruction on how to dip lube...Same with any of the other lube makers here.
Here is my take;
1- are you squeezing down the lead too much when seating
2 - crimping too much or squeezing the loaded round with a FCD
3 too fast of powder too hot of load for your barrel (rough or slightly out of spec)
4 rough inside barrel or copper fouling (read about smoothing inside barrel)
5 Use as fat a boolit (lead projectile) as you can and still chamber it
6 If everything is perfect you CAN use Alox and make it work
7 there is more but, have time restraint

[HATCH]

Hell i will send you a 100 boolits to try out..

[popper]

I think the others covered it, use a slower powder (unique/231), 50/50 COWW/pure and you could try the Hi-Tek coating. Works a lot better than Alox. Stops leading and no smoke.

[Mactrekr]

Ok, got it, NO ALOX! So, what is your take on the 45/45/10 mix that Recluse came up with. I've got Alox, got oderless mineral spirits and JPW in hand. Better? Also, I'm going to drop the load to 4.4gr W231 and try it again. As to the WW/tape weight mix, that wasn't so much to soften the batch, as it was at the time I couldn't bring myself to waste PB. The bucket of WW I got was about 65% steel/zinc and it was getting depressing watching the throw away pile grow so much faster than the keepers pile. In the future, straight W/W although I might order some tin to balance out the 100lbs of ingots I've already put together. I'd be very happy to pay for samples of better lube if ya'll have recommendations. I shoot almost exclusively 9mm, .38/.357, .40S&W and .44 Mag. Haven't got a mould for .44 yet. so really no magnum type velocities to worry about yet. Also, I live in AZ, not the uber hot Phoenix area, but temps durring the summer months hover around 90 all day long. If there is a recommendation on lube I'm all ears. And thanks again.

[gunoil]

hi-tek in the AZ heat, you'll love it. Flux with alox.

[Ausglock]

I was using this bullet in a G35 40S&W. LLA was no good. I changed to Jake's Purple Cerasin lube in a Lyman 450 and no more leading issues. Just gunk issues. Now I HI-TEK coat and everything is clean, accurate and lead free.

Make sure if you are using a Lee FCD that it is not post sizing your bullets as the round enters the die for crimping. This was my problem. The bullets were getting sized down to .399 and then severely leading no matter what lube or coating I used.

[RobsTV]

Also, I'm going to drop the load to 4.4gr W231 and try it again. .

From my notes after a lot of testing with w231
Lee 401-175-TC (drop at 180gr)(OAL = 1.130)

W231 4.55gr, 897 fps, pf=161, 320 ft/lbs, ES-22, SD-8

And..... Still leading (carnauba red, and also tried combo of red + lla)
Powder still too fast.

Think of a 350hp car, you stomp on gas, tires spin throwing tread, then after a distance it hooks up. W231 same idea, max power right off the bat, skidding into rifling, and by the time it grabs, smaller boolit. Measuring recovered lead at smaller diameter than pulled boolits was another clue that confinced me.

WSF and WAP slower burn rate solved leading by not stomping the gas. Pedal not to the floor until movement and traction has been thoroughly engaged, then full power. I believe it stated somewhere that WAP (now Silhouette) was the powder used to develop the 40 S&W.

A harder boolit also makes it much worse. No or little obturation can occur. Tried HT and below until I found around 12BHN worked best with the 40 S&W.

Your results will be different.

[MT Gianni]

IME Lee Alox is a great lube. It is a 50-50 Alox beeswax mix that comes in a stick form. Lee Liquid Alox [LLA] is not Lee Alox but I suspect that is what you have.

[RobS]

Haven't got a mould for .44 yet. so really no magnum type velocities to worry about yet.

It's not about the velocities but rather the pressures associated. I prefer the slower powders as well for this cartridge unless I'm loading mouse fart loads. HS-6 worked well for me the last time I loaded up some 40 S&W rounds. I suspect WSF would work well too.

[RobS]

A harder boolit also makes it much worse. No or little obturation can occur. Tried HT and below until I found around 12BHN worked best with the 40 S&W.

Your results will be different.

I wouldn't say that a water quenched boolit is necessarily the problem or makes things worse. If the booit fits the bore (.001-.002 over bore diameter) then there is no need to obturate or bump up to seal the bore. A harder boolit can actually help stop the skid of the boolit base because it is tougher. A harder boolit can also help in keeping it from swaging down in the brass case upon seating.

I water quench all the 40 S&W's load. I shoot air cooled WW from 45 auto as well as some really soft HP's but still prefer slower burners for the 45 auto. On the flip side I shoot water quenched in my Ruger only 45 colt loads and 454 Casull (all PB boolits) but then run air cooled for light plinkers in those calibers. There are many variables that go into things here.

[leeggen]

Mactreker, I shoot the 40 s&w PX4. I use the 145grswc and I had to go to Accurate AA#5 also started using 50/50 ww and pure lead, mix a little tin for mould fillout, alox or FWL seems to do. Slug the barrel and size accordingly + .001 to .002 oversize. Also be sure to clean all copper out of the barrel, I didn't get all out first time and has a little mess to work on.
Good luck and keep trying change 1 thing at a time or you won't know what works and what doesn't.
CD