Automated Master Caster

[ProfGAB101]

A PLC and a Arduino share the same problem - to make changes you need to attach a cable and use an external device to edit/change/upload a new program. Not only that, much of the software needed to do this is not non-geek user friendly.

Now you could take an Arduino Mega, add an ethernet/SDcard shield and add another display/menu button shield - but by that price point you could have bought 2 PLC units. Now if you go and draft a group from the EE program they could breadboard an Arduino circuit, add all the required sub circuits then once this is tested - design a single PCB that is ready to interface with the air solenoids and sensors and send that design to a PCB fab ( maybe in China, {don't shoot the messenger} ) and get back a batch of ready to use boards.

It all depends on what your stated goals are. I would want to have a near turnkey kit that could be sold to Master Caster owners that would be a simple bolt on as much as practical. Maybe offer a clamp on drill guide for locations that users need to modify the chassis etc. on a refundable deposit basis.

[hagel]

That's pretty much what I'm hoping this one student that's essentially running the project will end up doing. I think it might make a good little business for him. Of course I'm hoping I might find something to do with it too. Mostly though, I'm just hoping to end up with a shop full of really reliable, cheap to run and relatively high output machines.

[hagel]

Update:

After careful analysis the ME team has decided on the best candidate for a data pick off point to supply a control input for the PLC. I think they are probably right but I don't want to get into speculation until they have had a chance to test it out. What I can say is that these guys are going at it tooth and nail. I'm really impressed by their enthusiasm and professionalism. I think we will all be excited by their ultimate result. Once they have the first machine up and running I throw together a Youtube video.

[Tazza]

This post is quite interesting, I'd like to see how your team's conversion goes. Most of the automated systems i have seen on this and other sites are basically the same, but everyone puts their own finishing touch to them.

I have an older model MC that i bought off ebay quite a few years ago. I have cast about 30,000 9mm 125gr conicals with it, sadly all by hand. I have been toying with the idea of automating it for a while now, i just need to get on with the job between house renovations. There have been quite a few good posts about how others have done it, i just need to make the decision of which way to go.

Hopefully i can get mine to run as well as the others i have seen featured on this site.

[hagel]

Right now the team of ME students are setting up an experiment. One of the Profs is letting them use his strain gauge. This should allow them to determine exactly how much force is required. Knowing that will allow them to determine the air cylinders required to pour the lead and throw the lever. It will be interesting to see if they arrive at the same specifications as Hatch's machine or come up with something different.

In the meantime, Environmental Health and Safety (yes, OU has bureaucracy too) keeps blowing them off so they haven't gotten approval to melt lead on campus yet. My what a nanny state we have become. I remember hitting the oxygen lever to blow the asbestos out of the way so I could cut up reaction vessels from a defunct chemical plant when I worked in an industrial scrap yard in Elyria. Of course that was way back when America actually made more than ********.

Anyhow, if the powers that imagine themselves important ever let them get on with it I am expecting them to do well with this. They're putting a lot into it. Now assuming they do I hope to offer kits so you and others can do the same to your MCs. We're all busy and most of us aren't as talented in the automation area as Hatch is so a little help in the form of a box with everything you need including instructions would be pretty cool.

[HATCH]

I need to clarify some things...

Wyman is the one who really got the ball rolling.
He is the one who designed the pneumatic operation of the master caster.
He is the one that picked out the air cylinders.
All I did was automate what he designed.
And to be honest I wasn't the first one to automate a master caster. Jmorris built a mc from scratch and automated it .
No_1 automated his using hydraulics and relays for timing.

I wouldn't of done the automation if my brother No_1 hadn't automated his and if wyman hadn't done manual pneumatics on his. It was the combination of both their efforts that made it possible. So it isn't just me.

Just like the automation of the star sizer. Again wyman did the pneumatics and I just automated it. In fact that was total old school with two relays (smart).

You need to tell the students that the force required to operate the machine changes once the machine is at operating temp.

[hagel]

I need to clarify some things...

Wyman is the one who really got the ball rolling.
He is the one who designed the pneumatic operation of the master caster.
He is the one that picked out the air cylinders.
All I did was automate what he designed.
And to be honest I wasn't the first one to automate a master caster. Jmorris built a mc from scratch and automated it .
No_1 automated his using hydraulics and relays for timing.

I wouldn't of done the automation if my brother No_1 hadn't automated his and if wyman hadn't done manual pneumatics on his. It was the combination of both their efforts that made it possible. So it isn't just me.

Just like the automation of the star sizer. Again wyman did the pneumatics and I just automated it. In fact that was total old school with two relays (smart).

You need to tell the students that the force required to operate the machine changes once the machine is at operating temp.

Thanks for clearing all that up. Now that you put it all together like that I think you may have put that out there before just not as simple and direct. I'm one of those people who needs whacked up side the head sometimes to get it straight. Sort of like this old SR500 I used to have, had to give it a good solid kick or two and then it would run.

So, hats off to Wyman, No-1 and you. You're definitely more talented than most of us. Most importantly you got off your cans and did something. The rest of might like to do something like that but need a lot more help in the right direction. I know I do. I run into something I don't know how to do and I usually just get that "deer in the headlights" stare, freeze up and don't do a damn thing. Pretty irritating trait to have to live with but also pretty common. One of the saddest things about being intelligent is that we can grasp how lame we are.

I really like the simplicity of how you did the Star. I intend to set mine up that way and I'll be asking you a few questions when it's time to do that.

Now when you say that the force needed to run the MC changes as it warms up do you mean that it takes more force to pull the lever or less?

[HATCH]

Everything heats up.
Unless you run a loose guide rail it will bind after heated up.

[hagel]

Everything heats up.
Unless you run a loose guide rail it will bind after heated up.

Hmm, well that makes sense. Lots of things do expand when heated. How about the lead valve? The ME guys are getting ready to do a static test on that using a thing called a load cell. Does it get stickier or looser when the pot is full of liquid lead? I can't wait until my second MC gets here. Should be just under two months now. You were right, it would have been real nice to get to play with one of them before I turned over to the students. Would have probably cut down on the stupid questions too. Well, maybe it would have.

[HATCH]

No the lead drop is fine. Only think that I have noticed is that if you start with a full pot and adjust the lead pour timer when its full, you will need to be careful when it gets low.
The amount of lead that flows out of the valve varies according to the amount of lead that is in the pot.
A full pot will flow faster then a pot that is 1/2 full. So when you adjust the lead pour timer you need to make sure that you have enough lead in the sprue to cover it when the pot gets low.
Also a fuller sprue comes off the easier compared to a smaller sprue.
I have made the mistake in the past on having just a little chocolate chip size spure but then when the pot got low I would end up with holes in the base and lighter boolits.
The some of the boolits would look right but when you weighed them they would be light.
So from now on I just make sure I have a nice full sprue.

Now something else you need to consider is that you need to secure a long term lead source right now.
I have 2500lbs but I am gonna buy another 2K lbs.
That would set me up for the next 20 years or so.

[RoGrrr]

Hatch
Do you use a digital timer or is your time period adjusted with a pot ?
I have a digi timer which will allow for repeatability and ease of setup when I change to a different boolit.
I'd also like to be able to set the timer up so I can change pour time on the fly. i.e.: be able to cast 9mm and 45 on the same carousel.
Oh, wait. You guys are talking about Master Casters and I have a Boolit Master. Sorry. I guess I'd have to have something like a PLC or control the BM with a laptop or tablet.

[hagel]

Looks like Victory White Metals, 6100 Roland Avenue in Cleveland, Ohio might end up being my Go To source for alloy. Of course I keep watching the Gov Liquidation site too. I tried to get one of the batches they had at Louckbourne last time but I got beat out. I did end up with about 4000 yards of 6000# test one inch OD webbing. Still not sure what I'm going to do with that but if any of you need any I can sure give you a deal. Got to move that **** to the upstairs of the garage this weekend so the wife can get her car in the garage.

[hagel]

I really would like to get up there to see your machine. Won't be any time soon though. I'm swamped.

[Tazza]

I found that my MC in standard operation does get tighter as the mold expands, when at operating temperature it drags a little on the rails. I believe if you adjust it slightly afterwards, you can adjust it so its not too tight, it's only the smallest amount. Once adjusted, you won't need to mess with it unless you change molds.

I believe the bulk of the force that is required is to cut the sprue, not to get it to move past the guides too. I have actually put a little synthetic oil on my guides, makes it run really smooth, only takes a drop every few hundred rounds.

With the drive cylinder, don't forget that you can increase or decrease the air pressure to get more or less force up to the limits of the air supply. I have a cylinder for mine that i had off something else, it has a 4.5" stroke instead of 5" that Wyman used. It has an ID of almost 2" which is also larger but will work all the same, all i will need to do is adjust the pressure down to reduce the force applied and lower the pivot point to make up for the 1/2" less stroke, just dial it in when it's fitted up. The figures your students get will be a good starting point, i'd like to size the cylinder a little larger then dial in the pressures after it's hooked up to get it spot on. I believe mine will be an over kill, but the price was rite (free). I also have a solenoid valve to control the cylinder and electric solenoids for the lead pour and mold tappers.

I have a design in my head that uses cheap relay timers off ebay but i'm not sure if their adjustments will be accurate enough. They may just work in full second increments not fractions of a second, so that may have issues with the lead pour time, but i think i can adjust the flow to compensate. I have an idea of how to make a mold tapper too using them. If it actually works, that will be determined after it's all fitted up......

[hagel]

Mold tapper - that's something I'm interested in too. Hatch gets around the problem of stuck rounds, mostly the hollow points he makes, by doing double taps with the main cylinder. That may very well be the best way to go. Simple, cheap and just a little change in the PLC code. However, the tapper on that way expensive but really smooth running German machine sure does look cool. I'd like to know what you have in mind for your setup. I own one MC now, another one will show up in just under two months and the third one will probably get here sometime in March. I have to get all three of them singing and dancing by May. I won't be able to pull off what I have in mind if bullets get stuck in the molds.

On another front - the ME student gang got lucky with the guys from the Environmental Health and Safety Dept. Two guys from there met with them and both of them are shooters. One of them is a reloader (or future customer as I like to think of them) too. Things are moving ahead again. I was terrified they would turn out to be someone who knew absolutely nothing but what the yellow journalists on the idiot box told them about guns. Who knows, maybe there are more of us sane individuals left in the US than I thought.

[Tazza]

I'm trying to avoid using a PLC because i'm from Australia, the freight could quite easily cost as much as the PLC and it all depends on if they would be willing to ship internationally. I'm aiming to use only one air cylinder, it will be larger so the code will need to be different, my brother works in IT, he'd be able to write it if i can't understand it.

The tapper plan i have in my head uses old solenoids from non direct drive washing machines. I believe they use them as a break between forward and reverse cycles. You apply power and it pulls the plunger in, i'm thinking of installing a spring behind the plunger so they will essentially vibrate when power is put on and off. A Plc to control the on/off functions would be handy, but i have done this before with a relay, you power a DPDT relay with one of the NC poles connected to your supply power. When the relay energizes, it breaks the circuit so the coil lets go till it closes, then powers and breaks the circuit till the power is turned off. It happens very fast, so i'm thinking a capacitor across the coil to slow the cycle time down. This is all in theory, i need to see how it works in practice with a load though. It's been a long time since i did this relay 'trick' i can't remember how it worked for the job i had to do.

Good to hear your health and safety department visitors had no issues. From what i have been told, melting lead is safe, just don't let it get too hot or it emits vapors that are not good for you. Plus all the other things, wash your hands after handling it.

[hagel]

I'm definitely no electrician. I can wire a house, set timing on an old motorcycle engine and read simple wiring diagrams. That's all going to have to change. THe ME students are going to do one of the MC machines for me. I have to do the Starr automation (I'll be asking Hatch a lot of really stupid questions) and automate the other two MCs myself (I'll be asking the ME students a lot of questions then). Mark turned me onto a series of Youtube videos that go over some of the basics of PLC programming. It's a slow slog through them for me. I'm hoping it will make more sense when I have a machine to work with and I can see the results of what I'm doing.

Having said all that I think you can understand that a few pictures of what you are talking about doing to the solenoid would really help me to understand it. Hopefully you can get your project together and shoot a few pics to help us electrically challenged folks out. I really like the idea of a solenoid tapper. It seems to me that it should not only work to dislodge stuck bullets but it should also use less electricity than an air cylinder would. No losses from converting electrical energy to air pressure and such.

Yep, we got lucky with the EHS guys. Funny thing about America, if you listen to the talking heads on TV or radio you would think we are divided into arsenal toting, mass murdering lunatics and totally clueless anti-gunners. Truth is that just ain't the case. Some of us play golf, some of us are couch potato TV sports freaks and some of us play with guns. There really are fewer true extremists than you might think. The media just has us all a little paranoid these days. It really is kind of sad.

[Tazza]

I'll do my best to get some pictures of what i'm trying to do. Heading over to the oldies place this afternoon, that's where all my gear is located. I'll try and get some pictures of the solenoids in question, it may not show how they will be hooked up, as that will take a little more thought.

I'm not really sure what would use less energy, an electro-mechanical solenoid or compressed air. I totally get your point that you have to keep generating air to keep it going, it wastes energy doing so, but some times it's the price you have to pay. The main deciding factor to use a solenoid for the lead pour was the fact that i already had them so i didn't need to buy an air cylinder and air valve.

I actually ordered two double relay timers off ebay today, it will be interesting to see if it works, if not i always have the option of falling back to a PLC and use the timers for something else.

I spoke to my brother about a PLC last night, he said they were pretty simple to program. Coming from him, that doesn't say a whole lot for the 'normal' people. He and his team write programs for banks and the stock market, he is really good at what he does.

You mean that all Americans aren't gun toting maniacs? I'd have never thought that the media would lie about things like that They do the same over here, we have some pretty strict firearm laws, everything needs to be registered. I only 'play' in the pistol side, we can't own anything over .38/9mm without it being a pain in the butt, they took my .45 as i could only use it for one competition to own it. Minimum barrel lengths, No semi-auto rifles or shot guns, not even pump action shotties. The media puts a negative spin on all legal firearm owners and call for bans. Do you think the people with illegal ones would surrender them? i think not. Very few firearms are stolen from legal owners, most are smuggled in or have been here before the laws were brought in.

[Tazza]

I took a few pictures of the solenoid, it needs a few modifications to limit it's travel for use as a tapper, but when i get to it, i'll pass the details on. Again, i still have no idea if the theory will work or not.

Hopefully the attachments will work.

[jmorris]

I'm trying to avoid using a PLC

I didn't use a PLC on the one I built. I made timers to control the relays.