Automated Master Caster

[hagel]

The big reason I'm working with the engineers at OU is that I hope they can set up one of these new, cheap little micro computers to run the system. This would (theoretically at least ) offer the opportunity to quickly and easily change parameters. These computers (they'll probably want to use an Arduino) can use a standard USB memory stick to hold the software that runs them. Hopefully this will mean that to change a setup on a machine all I'll need to do is swap out the die and the memory stick and be up and running on a different bullet.

We'll see how it all works out.

By the way Hatch, is it all right if I give the kids at OU your contact info? There is supposed to be 5 of them on the team. I'm sure that if they could talk to you it would make their job easier. After all, there is no substitute for experience and you have plenty of that.

[HATCH]

Yeah that's fine.

[hagel]

Thanks Hatch! I really appreciate that. I'm sure the kids in the ME Dept will too. Just so you know my presentation, that's the song and dance I have to do to recruit 5 of them to work on this project, is basically this:

Hi. My name is Bill. I'm a gimp. I've been a gimp for over 30 years. I have Ankylosing spondylitis (short explanation of exactly what that **** is). I need to set up a small bullet casting business so I can have some way to make money as I continue to get more gimped up. You get to help me do that by automating a magma Engineering Master Caster (show them a short clip of one being operated manually).

Then I show them a clip of your machine chugging along and discuss what I want to see in the way of using a micro computer to control it.

That's pretty much it.

Now after they have their team put together things'll get interesting. I'll bet you anything that some of them will want to bug you about just what you did and what you have learned from it. Hey, I just had a thought. Why don't I tell them that they have to contact you through this thread? Do you like that idea? You and everybody else who's following this might just find that entertaining.

Get back to me and let me know what you think. We'll do what ever works for you.

[HATCH]

You want it as simple as possible.
Why reinvent the wheel?

either use a plc or it can be done with relays. Would take about 6 relays but then you can adjust on the fly with no computer.

[HATCH]

Relays allow easier changes but also limit what you can do.
For example, double tap. i am sure it can be done with only relays but its really just few lines of code with a plc.

There are other options that i am thinking of doing with the plc but right now haven't had the time.
I can barely keep up with supplying my dad with ammo because he keep buying new calibers and new guns....

In progress
38/40
32/20
22 tcm

[hagel]

You see now, this is why I'm on here. You have over 10 years of experience with your system. It's kind of hard to argue with that.

The whole micro computer idea comes from two reasons. First, they are really cheap these days so they might actually beat out PLC or relays on price. Won;t know that until we start pricing out the components. The second has to do with the molds. When you are casting manually your nano technology, bio-molecular computer and sensor system, that being your eyes and your brain (mine happens to be powered by caffeine), does a whopping gob of split second computations/adjustments to things like pour time, cooling time and probably a lot more that you think. All those adjustments vary from one mold to another. In other words, casting 110 grain, 30 cal plinkers is a lot different from casting 220 grain 45 ACP SWCs. You don't really think about it when you're doing it. You just know what you're looking for and you adjust what you're doing. The thinking is that we can set up a simple program that looks at some of those things you look at without thinking about them. Things like pour time, distance you move the mold so the fan hits it, how long you let the fan blow on the sprue before it frosts up, how far and how hard you move the mold to the end of the stroke, double tapping to knock the bullets loose and all that stuff. Then you adjust the time for each one of these operations for each mold and maybe even for some alloys and save that particular program on a memory stick that is labeled to match up with the mold and alloy combination it was set up for. That way when you change out a mold all you need to do is stick the right memory stick in the USB port and hit run.

So, are you saying that I'm thinking way too hard on this? Oh, and just so you know, if I am it wouldn't be the first time. Don't get me wrong now. It's not like I'm a big fan of complexity or anything. At the end of the day I just want the casters to work and work right.

You want it as simple as possible.
Why reinvent the wheel?

either use a plc or it can be done with relays. Would take about 6 relays but then you can adjust on the fly with no computer.

[ProfGAB101]

There is a small processor board called the Beagle Bone (black) there are expansion boards (capes) that are designed for machine automation. There is a group of the LinuxCNC developers that are porting LinuxCNC (formerly called EMC2 ) to this platform. This is a super easy adaptation since you are not doing coordinated movement of multiple axis. The BBB is smaller than a Arduino Mega but has a full 1gb ram IIRC. LinuxCNC has Classic Ladder which is a software PLC and HAL which is the Gordian knott which ties everything together.

LinuxCNC is free - there is a very active user mailing list and IRC channel ( #LinuxCNC on freenode.net ) and the group is eager to help solve issues.

[HATCH]

The plc i used is under $80
i already have a working program ($50 donation to 45nut).

Its a proven design used by multiple users. I would love to see a different approach.

i have cast 90 grain boots to 255 grain boolits with no program change needed.

I only added the double tap feature because i got a hollowpoint mold and needed it.

I have found myself adjusting the flow control valves to slow the strokes down according to the molds. But this isn't really needed. I just slow it down to limit wear and tear.

What i would like to see is air tappers at the bottom knocking the boolits/sprues loose.

[hagel]

I knew it! I was way over thinking this thing! See, now this is what happens when you know just enough about something to be really dangerous.

Thanks Hatch. You just told me several things that really put my mind to rest. I'm not going to argue with you and your years of experience. I really had no idea that the PLC route was so inexpensive.

Your desire to have a tapper at the bottom is something I had already thought about. I was thinking of a simple solenoid attached to a piece of thin, somewhat flexible rod with a small, replaceable bumper of some kind on the end that whacked the sprue plate retaining bolt head a few times at the end of each stroke of the mold. I figure that way you have your bearing surfaces that are getting whacked easily replaceable.

Is there any reason you want it to be air powered instead of using a solenoid? I was thinking that the solenoid could fire faster than an air cylinder and thus not slow the whole process down as much. Once again though I don't really have enough experience to know that is the case.

Now as for a different approach, I'll be sure to point out ProfGAB101's comments on the Beagle Bone to the ME crowd that will be working on this project. I don't find it surprising that someone has developed a micro computer that is adapted to this sort of task. I just don't have enough experience in the area of machine automation to know what it is. I really appreciate the info.

[EDG]

Manage the ME project efforts very closely. The kids maybe very sharp but lacking any practical experience. If they goof or go down the wrong trail you can lose a lot of time and maybe waste the project. One potential problem with a lot of university profs is they go right from HS though the university and never work in industry.
They are very strong on the theoretical but not so much on the practical.

[hagel]

I used to work at OU. I've seen this in operation. I hope to get my hands on three Master Casters. I will probably set one up exactly like Hatch's with the addition of a tapper. The other one will go into use manually as soon as I get it just so I can get some experience and start supplying a limited amount of bullets to the store I'll be dealing through. One of the students that will be on the team has some real world experience and is pretty level headed. One of the ME profs is an avid reloader.

My hope is that the machine I set up like Hatch's will serve as a basis for comparison. What the come up with will have to perform better and present some advantage or everything they have done will get stripped of and canned and I'll end up with three just like Hatch's. I will watch the students to make sure they don't screw up the machine they are working on to the extent that it can't be set up that way.

In short, I realize that I will be herding cats with this project and that is just the nature of the game. The program in the ME department has been running for a few years now though. One recent project they did over a two year span of time was to automate the packaging line of a local small brewery. They got the job done so I know they can produce results. I'll just have to work with them so they produce satisfactory results.

[hagel]

I just got my grant approved on Tuesday and I had my first meeting with the engineers on Wednesday. The ball is rolling now.

[Brenden]

Have you seen this video yet, another take on automating the master caster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TWNmgEMnM

[HATCH]

I have watched that vid a bunch of times. IMHO its a great design and doesn't beat up the machine at all.
If money wasn't a option then that would be the way I would go.
Woudn't have to deal with air or anything.

[hagel]

I had to do a presentation to the ME students to recruit 5 of them for the Master Caster automation project. What I did was show them three videos; one of the Master Caster being run by hand, one of Hatch's machine and the one of that German machine you're talking about. Now don't get me wrong here, that German machine sure is slick, but I showed them that video to illustrate what not to do. The guy who put that together spent around 3000 euros doing it. At today's conversion rate that's about $4,000. I did like those solenoids used as tappers at the end of the cycle though. Might have to do something like that.

[kweidner]

Good luck on the process. I applied for my FFL in march and got it last month. Itar takes 6-8 weeks btw and is 2250 not 2150. Fill out online just do a google search for 2032 form.

[hagel]

Thanks for the info on the ITAR. I haven't done anything on that yet other than be disgusted at its existence. I don't waste much time talking to politicians but I'm afraid this just might prompt me to write to a few of them. The Republicans are always blowing BS about how they are for small business and against big government. OK, well if that's true then why haven't they gotten rid of this **** yet?

Now don't get me wrong I really don't care what part affiliation anyone has and I'm not trying to start anything on this list but facts are facts. I got fed up with both parties over 20 years ago and changed my registration to independent. I never miss the chance to vote. I don't care how anyone else votes but I do believe that anyone who doesn't take this civic duty seriously doesn't have the right to complain about much of anything.

The ITAR is the same price if you sell 1 bullet or a billion of them. That makes it a regressive tax. Regressive taxes on business stifle the entry into the market by start-up businesses. In other words it favors the big producers over the small ones. That is a really stupid policy position for a supposedly capitalist society. Besides that it is a defacto tax levied by an appointed official that has the force of law. I have some pretty serious constitutional reservations about that. Yes, I know, there are plenty of other examples of that and I don't want to start talking about the IRS and income taxes on this list. Seriously, please don't talk about the IRS and income taxes here. it just isn't the right place. That said the ITAR really does affect many of the people on this list directly and serves to discriminate against a particular type of business.

You know, when I was in the army it was pretty rare when I had ammo or any component thereof on my person. I was always wearing my skivies though, pants and shirt and boots too. Seeing as how these are items that are more commonly found in use by military personnel why doesn't the State Department tax businesses that make them?

OK, I thing the steam pressure has come back down to acceptable levels. None of you need to waste the time to respond to the **** I just flung out there. I am going to write to my congressman about the ITAR though. Who knows, maybe they haven't done anything about it before because no one else has bitched at them about it.

[RoGrrr]

<snip> Itar takes 6-8 weeks btw and is 2250 not 2150. <snip>

Well, CREP ! They just raised our taxes AGAIN ! Them greedy BESTRADS ! Darn....
I mean DEMN !

[hagel]

Just got a call from Eric at Magma. Machine #1 shipped today. It is coming in with a 9mm conical and a 170 grain gas checked 357 mold. I need to call Larry tomorrow about some Gator Checks.

Speaking of gas checks, have any of you guys made any out of beverage cans? If so, shot any of them?

[hagel]

The first Master Caster arrived today. This is the one that goes to the ME students at OU for a few months. I meet with them next Wednesday for the second time. They are going to present what they have learned from their research into various methods of powering and controlling these machines. I talked to the lead student on the team last Wednesday. He had pretty much come to the same conclusion as Hatch on powering the machine. Linear actuators are too slow and geared motors are too expensive so I think they will decide to go with an air cylinder. They will probably go with an Arduino mini computer for the control but they might still use a PLC emulator program on it. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see what they come up with and even more interesting to see how well they can make it work.