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Thread: Powder Coating 101 - Electrostatic Method

  1. #81
    Boolit Master el34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangerjim View Post
    The dia should only be about a thou or so larger after PC. But I size that 2nd time as a check on the "solidity" of my PC coatings. You never know if a few could get loaded on the spray rack with some stray grease from your hands that will prevent the PC from sticking. You will never know unless you run them thru the die. I HAVE found a few......not many....that the coating DID come off in spots that were caused by grease non-adherence and not from wear/scraping simply from the die.

    And it only takes a few minutes to size them that 2nd time!

    bangerjim
    Quote Originally Posted by 500MAG View Post
    I wasn't going to size a second time but changed my mind. The second run through also helps to take off any burrs from where they stick to the foil. Didn't get any rub off with second sizing.
    I'm following your lead. I had planned to PC another test batch tonight, got two new powders from pbtp and a convection toaster oven today, but I'm getting hit with the Sunday afternoon lazy.
    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H. L. Menchen

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by 500MAG View Post
    I wasn't going to size a second time but changed my mind. The second run through also helps to take off any burrs from where they stick to the foil. Didn't get any rub off with second sizing.
    Glad you brought that up.

    I forgot about the 2nd pass also removing any flash that can exist at the base. I have found the 1st and 2nd coating usually does not create any flash. But, being me and trying to stretch things, I try using the same N/S foil for 3 & 4 batches. Nice thing about using it again is the places to set the boolits are right there......little silver circles, and makes it faster setting them in rows. But the coating does build up and will create the flash at the bottom. 2nd sizing easily breaks all that off!

    bangerjim

  3. #83
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    Is there a difference between using glossy and matte powder coat finishes? I think a matte black could look real nice for .223 and similar rifle bullets.

  4. #84
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    Am I to understand that pushing a lead boolit through the sizing die will NOT lead the die if there is no lube present???

    I'm not sure if galling is the right term or not but yes you will lead the die from sizing. You may not see it but it's there. I didn't even know I had some in my die but pushing through some powder coated boolits showed me some leading I didn't know I had.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximumbob54 View Post
    Am I to understand that pushing a lead boolit through the sizing die will NOT lead the die if there is no lube present???

    I'm not sure if galling is the right term or not but yes you will lead the die from sizing. You may not see it but it's there. I didn't even know I had some in my die but pushing through some powder coated boolits showed me some leading I didn't know I had.
    Well, if your molds are dropping waaaaaaay out-of-spec slugs, then yes, you probably could get some lead deposits. I have shoved thousands and thousands of DRY rounds thru my 9/30/38/40/45 dies and not one speck of lead ever stayed behind. And that is inspecting with high power magnification equipment.

    It all depends on your mold size vs your die size. If you are off by several thou, you probably gotta leading problem!

    Leading could occur, but a brass wire brush will easily remove it. Removing lead from a short sizing die is sure a lot easier than a 24" rifle barrel!

    Gauling typically occurs when you have two very similar or same hardness metals in friction contact, such as brass to brass, alum to alum, steel to steel. That is why bushings are used and are made of dis-similar (and softer) metals than the shaft that runs inside them. Even then, gauling can occur over time with the lack of proper lub (dry bearing squeal...we have all heard it). But I am talking about many Feet Per Second/RPM continuous contact, not just simply pushing a soft(ish) lead slug slowly thru a (much harder) polished steel die by hand.

    Only you can decide if dry sizing is right for you...........and if you want the tons of extra time needed to clean ABSOLUTELY ALL the lube off the slug & out of the grease grooves B4 PC'ing. If you lube to size, you might as well just stick with olde-fashioned grease all the way.

    bangerjim

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDS View Post
    Is there a difference between using glossy and matte powder coat finishes? I think a matte black could look real nice for .223 and similar rifle bullets.
    I have tried all 4 colors HF sells and have found the matte black sticks better, will not come off (easily) with an acetone wipe test, and just looks cool.....on any cal slug. Reminds me of "black ops" ammo! That is the only color I use now. And I just cannot see paying $15-20/# for powder thru the internet! After all, it is the protection of the gun bore we are after, not a technicolor beauty pagent. If you want fancy colors, the black is perfect for spraying paint on, as it really sticks to the matte surface. Most paint will NOT stick to gloss.

    ("No warranties or guarantees expressed or promised by the writer if you spray regular "paint" on your black boolits and shoot them. Can you say "painting" in the barrel?")

    The red, especially in 45LC RN, looks like tubes of lipstick! The yelow does not cover the darker lead well at all. White........no comment.


    bangerjim

  7. #87
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    I actually like to do a thin coat of the matte black and then a second thin coat of the gloss red but I'm doing the Piglet method. I keep lurking here because I'm on the fence of trying to use the spray gun but it just looks so slow. But they do come out looking better. With the black and then red mine turn out looking like they are a very dark red. They have a satin sheen to them.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangerjim View Post
    I have tried all 4 colors HF sells and have found the matte black sticks better, will not come off (easily) with an acetone wipe test, and just looks cool.....on any cal slug. Reminds me of "black ops" ammo! That is the only color I use now. And I just cannot see paying $15-20/# for powder thru the internet! After all, it is the protection of the gun bore we are after, not a technicolor beauty pagent. If you want fancy colors, the black is perfect for spraying paint on, as it really sticks to the matte surface. Most paint will NOT stick to gloss.

    ("No warranties or guarantees expressed or promised by the writer if you spray regular "paint" on your black boolits and shoot them. Can you say "painting" in the barrel?")

    The red, especially in 45LC RN, looks like tubes of lipstick! The yelow does not cover the darker lead well at all. White........no comment.


    bangerjim
    Does white not work? I've used a lot of black and red successfully, and several people have hinted that the yellow is sub par.

    Is the white like yellow, or have you tried it?

  9. #89
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    Like Bangerjim said, the matte black looks really nice. I do like the zombie green ones I made but there is something about that matte black.
    "If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month."
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  10. #90
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    Question for all- how or do you bake the bullets?

    Has anyone tested hardness before and after powder coating and baking?

    I got some Hi Tek coated bullets back today and the baking had annealed them significantly. Just wondering if the powder coating does likewise. The annealing would be time and temp dictated.

  11. #91
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    I bake mine in a toaster oven in the garage.

    I water drop the bullets out of the oven to hopefully harden them up a bit. Either way I haven't seen any problems.

  12. #92
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    400 degrees 20 minutes in toaster oven. Water drop them immediately out of oven.
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  13. #93
    Boolit Master rlb's Avatar
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    Same here. Just put 30 rounds through the 44 that were full tilt+ and the bore is still squeaky clean.
    Rich

  14. #94
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    Ok, water dropped from oven at 400 will keep em reasonably hard. Good to know.

  15. #95
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    I did make a huge mistake while coating a batch this weekend that may help. Don't ever attempt to adjust the flow nob on the powder gun tip while you are standing on the pedal. The shock made me feel like a lightning bolt shot out of my &$$. I must have looked like the cartoon when they get shocked and you can see their X-ray.
    "If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month."
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  16. #96
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    I use a Wellbilt convection/toaster 1200w oven I stole from the wife to bake outside my back workshop. I bought her a much bigger and nicer digital one to replace it! It works very well and I have 8 racks for it and can load 4 at a time while filling/spraying the other 4.

    Bake @ 400F for 10 min ONLY in a preheated oven. I let them cool to 180F in the oven and then take them out. I use a HF laser temp gun.

    You can tell when the matt black is pretty much done......it turns real shiny at about 320F and then after about 6 min they all turn matte finish.

    All the directions on all powders I had seen say 400 for 10 min. That allows the molecular bonds to adhere with the substrate (lead) and form that cool hard shell we are after. Baking for too long may weaken that bond, but I have not documentation about that. I know you can bake multiple times at 400 without degradation of the 1st coat.

    I never worry about lowering the bhn by baking them. I have LOTS of 15-22+ bnh alloy to mix, and even though I water drop at casting (to prevent burnt fingers!! not harden), I am sure if you are relying on water dropping to increase hardness, you are loosing some.

    But........remember, we PC to allow us to shoot softer lead and not really worry about all that hardness and water dropping whoop-la stuff anymore!

    My slugs all end up around 12bnh on my Cabine after PC'ing and air cooling.

    And if your mix does not have any antimony in it, water dropping will gain you really nothing but cold boolits real fast. Lead + tin do nothing in water quenching.

    bangerjim

  17. #97
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    Jim, my alloy is roughly 2.5 Sb, 1 Sn, rest Pb. Water dropped and aged it tests at 24 BHn. Heated to 400 for even 10 min the cooled will anneal the bullets a bit. Only testing will say exactly how much.

    Not a huge issue, just something I am concerned about. I like to know what variables exist so I know what to look for.

  18. #98
    Boolit Master el34's Avatar
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    Based on a couple of forum comments and speculative reasoning, BHN might not be that much of an issue. Might be possible to PC boolits cast from very soft alloy, maybe improve expansion in handguns at least with HP's.
    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H. L. Menchen

  19. #99
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    Cooked at 475 degrees for i hour with another type coating then water dropped and the next morning had to hit 3 times hard with about a 3 pound hammer to reduce it to half diameter. Usually takes 2 days to a week for them to harden up but with the coating maybe it worked quicker? I would have thought slower but that's what happened.Sorry i didn't have bhn tester but they definitely hardened up. (This was'nt pc coating so i don't know if that makes a difference)Alloy was straight ww.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Already finished my jug of HF white, works fine. I WD after casting due to my coating method, my alloy is ~ 1% Sb, I coat, cook 30 min @ 400, WD immediately. Hopefully I'll make it to the range with a little harder alloy, trying for 1MOA @ 100, 2400+fps. If that works, I'm set. My home made tester gives a 12# reading for the WD uncoated, 1-2# for H-T coated. Big hardness difference. Don't clean the 308 often & usually shoot 40-80 rnds a trip. Nothing to clean, not even the BCG.
    That is what counts! Where the rubber......er....lead meets the road!

    The proof is in the shooting and lack of leading.

    Keep us informed as to what you find from range tests and WD'ing after PC'ing.

    You are pushing the FPS up way beyond what I do for now. The indoor range I use will not allow my 30-06! So I need to go the hills someday and try it. There I can recover my slugs for analysis.

    bangerjim

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check