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Thread: Powder Coating 101 - Electrostatic Method

  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    I was wondering if I can place the bullets back in the oven and cook for say 15 minutes or so. Would this finish the process or just leave as is. I guess I willnot know until I try it. We have a week of nasty weather before us so I will have time to do it in the garage.

    Thanks for the reply.

    Bob
    Once baked.......it is done. I do not think baking for any longer will do anything. I have never had your problem! You can add more powder and bake that 2nd layer, but the 1st layer is done.

    I think you may have a sizing problem. PC is not a cure-all for everything. Do you know your slugged size?

    I bake ALL my powders ONLY 10 min @400F. All work....no leading.

    Hope you locate your problem. I really do not think it is the PC, as thousands of us use it on a regualr basis with NO leading at all.

    GOOD LUCK!

    banger-j

  2. #642
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    PBTP usually includes curing instructions with their powders...What bangerjim said, once it's baked it's done, BUT it's also based on boolit temperature, not oven temp, so that 10 minutes should start once the boolits are up to temp. Some guys squash flat to smash-test, some make a lead cube, etc...PC should not flake off the boolit....Boolits should also be CLEAN prior to powdercoating

    If you're concerned about a partial cure then yes another short bake will finish the process and if there's still leading, try recovering a fired boolit (stack of wet newspaper/phone books & boards, or a range berm) to help troubleshoot.
    "Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver. "

  3. #643
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    bnager I appreciate your comments but they do sound a bt condescending. The powder in question is PBTP. With powder coating, one should not get gas cutting as you seem to suggest when you speak of bullet sizing. The leading I am getting arise in both my GP-100 using a RCBS 158 gr bullet sized .358. This revolver does lead often at the start of the rifling but never down the length of the barrel. That I am getting now.

    The CZ 75 Shadowline is a new pistol. Bullets sized .356 and .357 both lead the bore badly. I will be out today with two M&P pistols and a CZ 85 Combat. None of these two pistols ever show signs of leading. I will report back the results. I would have thought a powder coated bullet would act like a plated bullet providing a shield, of you will, between the lead bullet and the gasses.

    I have examined the powder coated bullets and they appear shiny with 100% coverage. We shall see how the tests go. Worse case scenario, assuming you are right on the baking and I believe you are, will be to run the bullets through my Lubricator and shoot them as lubed bullets.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  4. #644
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeguy View Post
    PBTP usually includes curing instructions with their powders...What bangerjim said, once it's baked it's done, BUT it's also based on boolit temperature, not oven temp, so that 10 minutes should start once the boolits are up to temp. Some guys squash flat to smash-test, some make a lead cube, etc...PC should not flake off the boolit....Boolits should also be CLEAN prior to powdercoating

    If you're concerned about a partial cure then yes another short bake will finish the process and if there's still leading, try recovering a fired boolit (stack of wet newspaper/phone books & boards, or a range berm) to help troubleshoot.
    I will give a batch of bullets a 2nd run through the oven and see what the results are. It maybe the 10 minutes ( note I set the timer for 20 minutes to give it time to come to temperature of 400 degrees. I did some tests early on with the oven and found this safely gave the bullets a 10 minute exposure to 400F.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  5. #645
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    That's strange indeed...20 min on the timer should easily be enough, even if temp is slightly below 400...I've never had a problem with leading in pistols with PC boolits but haven't seen it all by any means. I'd think the boolits still need to be soft enough to seal the bore properly when fired, powdercoated or not. PC acts as a shield to some extent, but strange things happen when high pressure is combined with high temperature even for a few milliseconds. You're on the right track though, especially if you use the same loading in more than one gun, and one leads but the others don't. It makes me want to deliberately try to get leading with PC boolits now, out of pure curiosity!
    "Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver. "

  6. #646
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    I use 20 mins, start to stop. That does give mine 10 mins on 400°. You might check your particular oven and make sure it gets to 400° in 10 minutes so it can bake the last 10 minutes if set for a total of 20.
    KE4GWE - - - - - - Colt 1860, it just feels right.

  7. #647
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    I spoke to PBTP and for the four powders I have 10 minutes is recommended at 400F. She also indicated redoing them in the oven would not hurt. I am in the process of doing enough to test. She also indicated cleaning the bullets with denatured alcohol ahead of PC is recommended in some applications. If the reheat does not solve the problem and it persists in guns that have never experienced leading I will move to the alcohol treatment and just lube the @k bullets already coated.

    I am getting a definite smell off the oven which might indicate further curing.

    Back to the sorcery and the casting Calderon.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  8. #648
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    Robertbank.........nothing condescending at all! All I did was state the facts and I have heard and have learned from over a year and a half of baking these things.

    Baking them more may give you some more hardness of the PC. I don't know.......never had the need to do it. It will not hurt it......just may not improve it. I double coat boolits frequrenty to give a colored nose of FP's. Or "sexy" color schemes. I beleive Beagle does similar double bakes.


    If I were to pre-clean bare Pb boolits prior to coating, I would use laq thinner. Alcohol just does not have the cleaning/degreasing potential of laq thinner. I used to use TCE as my go-to degreaser until they cracked down on it. Bought it in 5 gal drums.

    Hope you find your leading problems!

    banger-j

  9. #649
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    Are you sure you are getting to a true 400° during the first bake? By the time mine are finished, the smell is gone. They only smell right as they are starting to get glossy. (or at least to me.... my smeller ain't what it used to be).
    I do double bake for two colors. I have never had any problems with double baking. I'm not sure how long or how many times you can get them to 400° before it affects them, but a couple has never shown problems for me. Good luck!
    KE4GWE - - - - - - Colt 1860, it just feels right.

  10. #650
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Well most of my competition bullets have been rebaked. I had two 40 cal bullets weld together on the rebake and I could not hammer them apart so I do think the rebake had some affect on the powder coating. There was a veru distinct smell form the oven during the cooking process. So much so I donned my breather while the oven was doing it's thing. I managed to do some casting while the bullets were being processed.

    I have a suspicion the rbake will solve the problem. I want it to. I have the Hi Tek powder coning early next week from Bayoo Bullets. I think it will be my go to process in the end given how much faster and easier it is to cook the bullets. Having said that I likely will also keep the PC process as well. I can do that in the winter where the H-Tek process is not likely doable come -10F. Time will tell and I have time.

    I will load and test some bullets at the range over the weekend. Rain is in the forecast. We shall see.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  11. #651
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    The Hi-Tek stuff is less hands-on and might do you better. Some folks have more of a leaning for one or the other type of coatings and when you find the one that makes the most shootable boolits for you.... go with it!
    KE4GWE - - - - - - Colt 1860, it just feels right.

  12. #652
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    robertbank, have you verified the temprature of your oven? I found that mine is off by quite a bit.

  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle333 View Post
    The Hi-Tek stuff is less hands-on and might do you better. Some folks have more of a leaning for one or the other type of coatings and when you find the one that makes the most shootable boolits for you.... go with it!
    Well you stull have to get the formula right. The biggest advantage I see for me is the volumes of bullets you can produce. I shoot from 500 - 1,000 rds per week during the summer months. I can meet that demand by both methods. PCing is attractive in that I can do that in the winter like I have done in the past using lubed bullets. Hi-tek for me is going to be a spring/early summer activity.

    I obviously have something wrong, and I suspect improper curing time on some of the bullets. It only takes "some" to lead up a gun. Even what I have experienced is manageable, just annoying.

    Hi-Tek is significantly less expensive compared to PCing and lubing for that matter. Hi-Tek isn't the first good thing that has come out of our Australian cousins and won't be the last.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  14. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonie View Post
    robertbank, have you verified the temprature of your oven? I found that mine is off by quite a bit.
    Yes mine was right on.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  15. #655
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    OK back from the range with my GP-100 with a nice shiny clean barrel. Initial run with 38spl IDPA loads indicates the leading problem is solved. I will get my 9MM loads out on the range tomorrow to test those bullets. I suspect all will be well.

    The problem was as I suspected some/all of the bullets I had PC'd had not been cured properly. It is difficult to say how many were or were not cured enough because it only takes a few to lead up your gun. If all goes well the RCBS Lubricator will have lubed it's last pistol bullet and likely it's last rifle as well. It will be awhile before I consume all my loaded &/or lubed bullets but they will go.

    The Hi Tek powder will be here Monday or Tuesday according to the post office tracking and the learning curve begins anew. A shout out goes to Donnie and Bayou Bullets. Donnie you must have an in with the USPS and American Customs. I haven't seen mail move that fast ever. USPS must feel bad about sending my PBTP order to the UK!

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  16. #656
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    Great Robert good to see you got your problem figured out on one of the guns. You may want to check temps on different areas of your stove 360 Gremlin was talking about putting some tile in the oven to even the heat out you may want to check that line of thinking out. I just picked up a full size stove for PC I need a lower burner so I can run it on bake. Yes the top burner will reach 400 but I think the heat coming from the top and bottom has to be a plus on even heating. So I will avoid having 400 at the top of the oven and 375 or less in other places in the oven.
    Reloading to save money I am sure the saving is going to start soon

  17. #657
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    RP from talking to "she who knows best" aka my lovely wife a convection oven provides the most even heat. If your oven is not a convection type is there a way you could install a small fan to move the air around the oven. My little convection oven seems to work well it is my grey cells that seem to get twisted every so often.

    I think I may well have cheated on the cooking time on some of my runs and did not properly cure the bullets. Lesson learned, too I had the oven outside with an air temp. of 10C which likely played a part in all of my misadventures. I am not out of the woods yet until I complete the testing using the 9MM. The 9MM is a much higher pressured cartridge as you know. I am reasonably sure all will go well but as we both know the proof is in the pudding.

    All the Best

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  18. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    If your oven is not a convection type is there a way you could install a small fan to move the air around the oven.......
    Bob
    Well, you could.... but I suggested that in a thread about a year ago and I still got a few feathers and spots of tar on me from that episode. I had been so bold as to suggest buying an old convection fan unit off Fleabay and installing it on the side of a regular toaster oven. I disassembled my own convection toaster and it is simply a fan mounted in a box on the side of the oven that draws air out of a hole near the bottom of the oven sidewall and blows it back into the oven via a hole at the top of the same side, and that looked really easy to install...... but I was apparently wrong.

    Here's a pic. The intake is a small square hole just above the bottom tray and the exhaust is another small square hole just above the top tray. The circular thing seen in the middle is for the rotisserie rod that came with this model.
    Last edited by Beagle333; 04-11-2015 at 09:20 AM.
    KE4GWE - - - - - - Colt 1860, it just feels right.

  19. #659
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    Well Beagle most of Europe figured old Christopher was about to sail off the edge of the earth. I would say go for it if you want to. I spent some Air Miles for my oven valued at around $99 up here. The value is closer to $50 on your side of the 49th. Convection is certainly the only way you can be sure of reasonably even heat as far as I know. One thing about both our countries you can pretty do and say what you want provided we respect the Laws of the Land.

    As to which system I end up using cost of procedure appears to favour the Hi-Tek method. I paid an arm and a leg for PBTP powder. Makes for pretty bullets that do work as advertised but Hi-Tek powder is quite a bit cheaper based upon expected bullet coverage per pound. Bullets are pretty too if that matters.

    Life is good either way.

    Take Care

    Bob
    Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  20. #660
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    I would not attempt to "make" a convection oven from a standard one due to the high-temp bearings in fan, the high-temp motor that may be required, and all the work to get something that is inferior to the real thing.

    Making something is one thing.............making "other" things is totally different!!!!!!

    Those out there that REALLY want excellent boolits, consider a convection oven. I threw 2 standared ones in the garbage after having saggy, melted, under cooked boolits all in the same batch due to the huge temperature differentials in a standard oven. Baking tiny boolits is totally different than baking a casserole in one. The casserole acts as a heat sink and the hot and cold spots make little if any difference in the resultant product. Our lil' boolits are much more sensitive to those hot & cold spots and really need the even heating provided by the convection fan.

    Spend a little more........get a whole lot more excellent boolits! And leave the $5 Goodwil toasters for making toast.

    That's my take.....after MUCH research + lots of trial and error.

    banger-j

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check