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Thread: Max 7.62X54R red dot load?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    Sweeper, thanks for hanging in there and not getting upset. Wilco and the assembled are looking out for you.

    Just a tiny glimpse into what the guy's are trying to explain to you:

    Just the difference in the way a jacketed bullet and a lead bullet interact with the case and the differing amounts of pressure it takes to begin to move the projectile out of the case can present a catastrophic situation with the lead bullet, when treated like a jacketed bullet.

    Stay with it, read everything you can get your hands on about lead boolit loading, and check your thoughts against multiple sources.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master WILCO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweeper View Post
    I just can't understand the logic in being told to stop learning how a cast boolit acts with specific velocities and different burn rate powders, paper patched, gas checked or plain based, water hardened vs. air cooled, etc, until I learn how it all works.
    Hey Sweeper,

    You're missing my basic points. You cannot go forward and build upon your experience without first having the basic working principles of using lead projectiles as boolits. You need to know that most of what you've done with full metal jackets doesn't apply with cast boolits. You need to understand that full metal jacket bullets are not readily interchangeable with cast boolits in the same firearm, without doing the proper prepwork. It does no good to have a rifle sighted in for fmj and then try to develop a load for cast, without being willing to readjust points of impact. It's dangerous, a waste of time, materials and money, to just take a "Load" from the internet and work your way up to a point, and then ask questions on max charges. If you fully understood the basics of cast boolits, you would know that you'll never achieve your ultimate goal, based on the realities of limitations inherent with the lead itself.
    I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you really need to learn about lead alloys, BHN, velocities and pressures, powder selections, powder reduction formulas, lubes and a host of other factors that are considered "Basics" and covered thoroughly in a manual geared towards cast boolit shooting. Stopping where you are, going back to square one with a designated cartridge/firearm, fully grasping the basics of the task at hand with a correct manual is both prudent and wise.
    Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

    Yeah, I love cast iron cookware.

    Life is too short. Live yours to the fullest.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Richard Lee's Second manual is a good one for you to read along with the Lyman #3 and #4.
    What the guys are trying to say (I think) is there needs to be an understanding of what happens to a cast boolit when fired versus the jacketed. I am using the Hi-Tek coating on my gas checked rifle boolits and trying to come close to jacketed velocities. A very definite point in the shooting is apparrent when the pressue becomes too great for the relatively soft boolit to withstand. IIRC 22 BHN linotype metal is good for about 27,000 psi, and heat treated 35 BHN alloy is good for about 35,000 psi. (My psi might be off a little.) This shows on the target as an immediate enlargement of the group size. So I am working with different alloys and powders trying to find the elusive combo that will give me good accuracy at over 2,550 fps with a 200 gr boolit in a 30-06.
    The "light" shotgun powder loads like the Red Dot you are using is low velocity, but not low pressure really. You are probably in the 35,000 to 40,000 psi or more with your load. They feel light because there is not the volume of gas created by a jacketed rifle load and the boolit is much slower.

    You may be able to accomplish what you want but it will probably take a lighter boolit and a much slower powder like your Varget (when you find some!). Have you considered a lighter jacketed bullet?
    I developed a "light" load for a friend of mine that has only one arm for his 30-06 H&R. It was a 125gr jacketed bullet with 2400 as the powder. It shoot about 1 1/2" below the Remington 150gr factory load he used for big game hunting. Gave him a fun load for coyotes and such.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Don't forget that boolits can break apart mid air from rotational inertia if pushed beyond your chosen alloys ability to hold together. If you try to push a boolit to jacketed speed in some rifles you get a shotgun affect at or before 100 yards. This is why some of the best calibers chosen have a max jacketed bullet speed of around 2000 FPS. The 300 blackout, and 30-30 are good examples of rifle calibers that shoot at speeds that cast do well with. You can get a boolit to do 3000 FPS, but it takes a lot of know how, and understanding of what is going on to achieve it safely.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master

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    The max Red Dot load aside, I don't get the difficulty of 'sighting' for different loads. I just jot down in my book how many clicks up or down I have to go on a scope or where to set the irons. Pick heavier bullets 200gr+ and slow the jacketed loads some, and the POI difference will not be as great while keeping the cast bullet at easily attainable speeds.

  6. #26
    Boolit Bub
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    Thanks for all the responses and info!


    Lots of good info, and even more for me to research and work on. While I am abandoning the quest for a Red Dot load, I better understand both what I need in a cb round and what I need to do to achieve the desired results.

  7. #27
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    I'm considering casting for a Moisin-Nagant. I've had good results in a M95 Steyr carbinr in 8x56R using cast bullets and IMR4198. I'm using a 220gr Lee .338 bullet at around 1800fps. The powder is much too fast for normal jacketed bullet loads, but seems to work extremely well with cast. For the Moisin I'm considering a heavy bullet with IMR4198. As every one here recommends, I plan to review a reloading manual on cast bullets BEFORE I get started.
    Thomas Paine:
    “To argue with a person who has denounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”

  8. #28
    Boolit Master

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    The 4198 will work just about the same in the 7.62X54R as the 8X56R. The 4198 will also work for jacketed loads but it will be at similar velocities to what you get with the cast loads. If you tried to match full jacketed velocities with the cast boolits 4198 would also be way too fast.
    The heaviest boolit normally available that would work in the MN is about the same weight you are using in the Steyr.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master

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    A simple observation on this subject.

    There's asking the question so you would know the "not to exceed" level, and there's asking the question because you want to try it.

    Now, wanting to know what to not exceed is a good thing.

    But, it's pretty much moot, as you should transition to a different powder long before you even get close.

    In other words, other powders work better.

    Seems faster powders (like Red Dot and Bullseye) work well for real light loads. Loads on the upper end of the velocity range should tend to be better served with quite slower powders, even slower than you would use for jacketed bullet loads.

    Why?

    It's about keeping pressures low.

    Load for an M1 Garand for a while, and you have to learn about "port pressure". You actually can load cast bullet loads at slower velocities than jacketed, and the action will work. Of course, you're using powders that would totally wreck the operating rod if it was loaded to jacketed bullet velocities, assuming you could get enough powder in the case to do so.

    A good book to read for advanced loaders is "Propellant Profiles". I'll wager Amazon has it. There's several different versions, the info gets kept from the older ones to the newer ones. It'll teach you about powder. If you're a fairly new loader, it's still good, but before you get it, I would look for "Pet Loads", which is available on Amazon. Warning, it isn't real cheap.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    There are well known fast powder loads for rifles that work well for cast in the large milsurp
    cases of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They are 10 gr Unique, 16 gr of 2400 and
    13 gr of Red Dot. Of these, Red Dot is BY FAR the fastest burning powder, so it will increase
    pressures the fastest as you add powder. Unique is in the middle and 2400 is the slowest.
    Unique is fairly forgiving up to 12-14 gr or maybe more in some cartridges, 2400 can be pushed up
    a good bit, too, but all of these need good data like in the Lyman manual. Pushing RD much is not
    going to be good, I would think and I actually do not use RD in the big milsurps, I stick
    with Unique and 2400, mid and slower speeds. The above loads are known good and known
    safe in a wide range of large capacity milsurps. Use them as is and you are safe. As you
    push higher, take care and try to find data to guide you.

    Best of luck, be careful and get some old Lyman manuals that give data for these powders.
    Modern manuals pretty much ignore cast in rifles and have a primary interest in
    producing max velocities with jbullets, so you are not going to find RD, Unique or 2400
    in use for rifles in most of them.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  11. #31
    Boolit Bub
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    Man, I'm sure glad I kept learning instead of stopping when Wilco said I'd get someone killed. Over 20,000 rounds of cast lead loads have gone down my barrels since I started this thread, and the only things I've killed have been coyotes and targets.......

    Just proves that some old know it alls are just butthurt that nobody listens to their rantings, glad I kept going instead of taking the advice of a grumpy old know it all!

  12. #32
    Boolit Master

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    (facepalm)

    If you'll go back and reread this thread you'll see a whole bunch of folks completely agreed with Wilco. Folks were trying to help you. Noobs showing up with zero appreciation for loading granulated brass bombs is fairly common on this site and a pretty fair percentage of the old fuddy-duddies here would rather caution someone frankly instead of hearing later about the injury and property damage.

    I am to assume that the 20,000+ rounds were 16gr. Red Dot or higher, as that is the way you have worded it?

    I guess folks should have told you to keep pouring the powder to it like some forums,,,,,.
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"


    Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

  13. #33
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Three times I almost jumped into this mess, 3 times I walked away.

    I guess I have 2 things to say.

    A I started out with 13 grains in my 7.62x54r, and its ok, but it shoots better at 10 grains.

    B Unreasonable expectations. They'll kill ya.
    If you are going to shoot cast over Red Dot, shoot cast over Red Dot. Sight the weapon for the load and leave well enough alone. And who said you could shoot light Red Dot loads to 300 yards?

    You want to shoot 300 yards buy match ammo and quite screwing around with plinking loads.

    Red Dot is great for what it does. What it does NOT do is give you max speed. 2500 fps for shooting 300 yards. You want to do that you need to look at a full case of slow rifle powder.

    Fast powder like Red Dot to go slow.
    Slow powder to go fast.

    Decide what you want. And accept that unreasonable expectations are dangerous.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Don't think that this attitude is restricted to Cast Boolits.

    I frequent another forum geared towards California residents. Maybe it is the special type of snowflake that we are raising out here now but the attitudes there are shocking.

    I agree about Red Dot. I don't own a Mosin but I helped my son work on his. When he shoots 75-100 yards he grabs a Red Dot or Unique load. When he goes for 200 yards he gets the 2400 loads.

    Now we are going to try to work up some 300 yards loads with Rx7 and others.

    You guys are great to try to help new reloaders, keep up the good work.


    Steve in N CA

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    You dredged up a 3.5 year old thread to brag about still being alive after not accepting some advice? How about adding something useful to the forum like what it is you kept learning over those 20k rounds and years of range time.
    Back in the land of boolits.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by texassako View Post
    You dredged up a 3.5 year old thread to brag about still being alive after not accepting some advice? How about adding something useful to the forum like what it is you kept learning over those 20k rounds and years of range time.
    Nah, was actually trying to find Ed Harris's write up for another fellow reloader and this thread was the first to pop up on my search. I re-read it, and it elicited the same thoughts it did 3 years ago, when I quit frequenting this forum.

    I learned a lot about lead boolits since then, and, other than .223, every round I reload gets fitted to it's very own cast lead pill.

    We should all think about how we respond to noobs, as our responses to their questions can affect how they view our hobby, and if the continue learning the do's and don'ts of cast boolits and reloading.

  17. #37
    Boolit Man
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    I'm shooting the 8x56R hungrian steyr, its the same case a 7.62x54R, mine is just necked up a little. I'm shooting a 227 gr. bullet somewhere between 1050- to 1150. that 9gr's of to 12 grains of Red dot, or 9 to 12 gr's of Trail boss. yes, this is with a Crony! this is still very much a work in progress, and trying to wait till the wind gets below 15 MPH("O") you can make 8x56R brass out of 7.62x54R, but the neck will be a little shorter. but it works, anneal the brass before you shoot it.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweeper View Post
    Nah, was actually trying to find Ed Harris's write up for another fellow reloader and this thread was the first to pop up on my search. I re-read it, and it elicited the same thoughts it did 3 years ago, when I quit frequenting this forum.

    I learned a lot about lead boolits since then, and, other than .223, every round I reload gets fitted to it's very own cast lead pill.

    We should all think about how we respond to noobs, as our responses to their questions can affect how they view our hobby, and if the continue learning the do's and don'ts of cast boolits and reloading.
    You still don’t get it?

    After a five year “sebatical” of sorts while you go about firing “twenty thousand boolits” and you open back up by lecturing experienced members on how their obligation to behave towards newbies?

    In your old postings you were lamenting on not being able to find data on using red dot in your Mosin. What bothers advanced members is people who charge in that have not bothered to use the search function.


    If you had done so ...(used the search)....you could have spent the past five years reading on the subject.

    The other place would be reading manuals .... members with experience grow weary answering questions that are in print in some awfully obvious places ..... the LYMAN CAST BOOLIT MANUAL .... for instance.

    After while a pattern becomes evident amongst newbies dividing them into two camps .... one where new members are absorbing as much info from print, physical and electronic as they can and the other group, one which wants to bypass the heavy lifting and cut to the chase, save time by just “asking” rather than reading.

    I personally know a fellow who takes it a step further. Whether it is about trucks, horsemanship or handloading and shooting, he often calls for information but also wants to argue if I did not give the answer he wanted. This has been going on for years and I flat out put him in his place now days because I simply run out of patience and time.

    You see a newbie that wants to find short cuts to learning is valuing their time more than they value a fellow member’s time and that is selfish.

    The reality is that the very posts of the past are a great gift to any newbie, far better than the advanced members had it in pioneering the advancement of the craft of casting and shooting boolits. There were nothing to search in the begining, much less all those stickies and member written articles.

    With all those resources at hand we find newbies that still expect it handed to them ........

    Three44s
    Last edited by Three44s; 03-10-2018 at 01:46 AM.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three44s View Post
    You still don’t get it?

    After a five year “sebatical” of sorts while you go about firing “twenty thousand boolits” and you open back up by lecturing experienced members on how their obligation to behave towards newbies?

    In your old postings you were lamenting on not being able to find data on using red dot in your Mosin. What bothers advanced members is people who charge in that have not bothered to use the search function.


    If you had done so ...(used the search)....you could have spent the past five years reading on the subject.

    The other place would be reading manuals .... members with experience grow weary answering questions that are in print in some awfully obvious places ..... the LYMAN CAST BOOLIT MANUAL .... for instance.

    After while a pattern becomes evident amongst newbies dividing them into two camps .... one where new members are absorbing as much info from print, physical and electronic as they can and the other group, one which wants to bypass the heavy lifting and cut to the chase, save time by just “asking” rather than reading.

    I personally know a fellow who takes it a step further. Whether it is about trucks, horsemanship or handloading and shooting, he often calls for information but also wants to argue if I did not give the answer he wanted. This has been going on for years and I flat out put him in his place now days because I simply run out of patience and time.

    You see a newbie that wants to find short cuts to learning is valuing their time more than they value a fellow member’s time and that is selfish.

    The reality is that the very posts of the past are a great gift to any newbie, far better than the advanced members had it in pioneering the advancement of the craft of casting and shooting boolits. There were nothing to search in the begining, much less all those stickies and member written articles.

    With all those resources at hand we find newbies that still expect it handed to them ........

    Three44s
    Well said.
    Be safe
    When you read the fine print you get an education
    when you ignore the fine print you get experience

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check