Max 7.62X54R red dot load?

[Sweeper]

160gr. cast boolit, what is the "do not exceed" rule of thumb? Been using 16gr. and getting decent results, but max load data is pretty much nonexistant.


So what's you guys' opinions? How far have you gone up in the range?

[Outpost75]

Atv16 grains of Red Dot in 7.62x54R you are already at mX load. Quit where you are!

[Maven]

C.E. Harris' load of 13grs. Red Dot in a .30cal. cartridge (metrics included) with CBs is where you want to be. No need to exceed it!

[blixen]

Maybe even back off! Pressures climb rapidly with fast burning powders. I use around 8 grains of RD in my milsurps.

[Sweeper]

Don't you guys get ridiculous bullet drop with lower charges? I'm still learning about cast rifle boolits, but 2-3 feet of drop by 100 yards is a bit too much, maybe I just need to forget about red dot loads and just load gc'd boolits at higher velocities. Thanks for the input, guys, I'll probably lower the charge back to 14 grains for my kids to shoot and just forget about light plinking loads for myself, I'm too hung up on long range shooting for this low velocity stuff.

[bruce drake]

low velocity stuff...amazing how the buffalo and Indians were dealt with low-velocity bullets. There is even recorded evidence of a indian fight where the buffalo hunters took down the Indians from nearly a mile away with a 45 caliber lead pumpkin mosing along...

just put your sight setting at 600 meters or arshins (depending on the age of your rifle) and you can work at 200 yards with a 13gr Red dot load quite well.

[Ben]

Why do people want to take super quick powders like Red Dot and max them out with red line loads ? ? ?

So many more useful powders on the shelf if you are looking for increased velocity. You gain a side benefit , much lower pressures with 2400, SR - 4759, IMR - 4895, etc.

[Sweeper]

low velocity stuff...amazing how the buffalo and Indians were dealt with low-velocity bullets. There is even recorded evidence of a indian fight where the buffalo hunters took down the Indians from nearly a mile away with a 45 caliber lead pumpkin mosing along...

just put your sight setting at 600 meters or arshins (depending on the age of your rifle) and you can work at 200 yards with a 13gr Red dot load quite well.

LOL! I know the story of Billy Dixon's Adobe Wells shot, but I'm still new to cast boolits! I'm used to loading 44.6 grains of Varget behind Sierra Match Kings and achieving 8" and smaller groups at 600 yards, so this whole cast boolit mindset is slightly confusing at times! I heard about the Red Dot loads here, and worked up from 12 grains in half grain increments, and found my best accuracy from the 16 grain load, but it has too much drop to use in my rifle (accurized,shortened, sporterized 91/30) without having to sight my rifle in just to shoot the thing! Keep in mind, though, I'm still a noob at cast boolit loading, so I'm still learning what works, what doesn't, and what's just a dumb idea. I do have a nice little deer load I'm working on for my brush gun using a cast boolit, and am currently experimenting with paper patching gas checked boolits.

Plus, the more stupid questions I ask, the less stupid things I do!

[WILCO]

160gr. cast boolit, what is the "do not exceed" rule of thumb? Been using 16gr. and getting decent results, but max load data is pretty much nonexistant.


So what's you guys' opinions? How far have you gone up in the range?

Sweeper,

Welcome to the forums!

I'm going to respond very bluntly to your OP and subsequent posts:

STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING BEFORE YOU GET SOMEONE KILLED!!

Get a manual dealing directly with cast boolit loads and data. From reading your posts, it's obvious you aren't aware of certain "realities" and how they apply to the realm of cast boolit shooting. Go back to square one, read and learn all you can about this type of ammunition and what it takes to safely make it work. Then pick one cartridge and firearm to perfect your abilities with. You need to learn that cast boolits perform differently than full metal jackets. Failure to do so can be catastrophic.

Take a look at this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...new-folks-that

Then read this one:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-you-recommend

Best wishes as you move forward.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

maybe I just need to forget about red dot loads

YES YES YES.
for what you're trying to do, RED DOT is the WRONG powder.
If you were to use a lighter boolit (like 90gr.) and load at 1600fps or less for plinking purposes, then Red Dot should be fine. But you'll still get a good drop at 100 yds. I shot alot of 22LR at various distances in a rifle league, and typically a standard velocity 22LR will drop about 8" at 100 yds. you just have to deal with it.

If you want to stick with the 160gr boolit, my first choice would be 2400...BUT DON"T LOAD TO J-WORD SPEEDS. 16 gr. of 2400 with a standard weight cast boolit is the goto load for 30 cal milsurps...it'll be under 1800fps.
Good Luck,
Jon

[singleshot]

Don't you guys get ridiculous bullet drop with lower charges? I'm still learning about cast rifle boolits, but 2-3 feet of drop by 100 yards is a bit too much, maybe I just need to forget about red dot loads and just load gc'd boolits at higher velocities. Thanks for the input, guys, I'll probably lower the charge back to 14 grains for my kids to shoot and just forget about light plinking loads for myself, I'm too hung up on long range shooting for this low velocity stuff.

What exactly do you mean by "2-3 feet of drop"? If you sight in at 100 yards with 13 grains Red Dot, your midpoint max height will be no more than 5".

For 16 grain charges, you need Alliant 2400! What are you trying to accomplish? Red Dot will approximate 22lr in this cartridge, no better velocity, much better BC and terminal energy and penetration.

[Sweeper]

Sweeper,

Welcome to the forums!

I'm going to respond very bluntly to your OP and subsequent posts:

STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING BEFORE YOU GET SOMEONE KILLED!!

Get a manual dealing directly with cast boolit loads and data. From reading your posts, it's obvious you aren't aware of certain "realities" and how they apply to the realm of cast boolit shooting. Go back to square one, read and learn all you can about this type of ammunition and what it takes to safely make it work. Then pick one cartridge and firearm to perfect your abilities with. You need to learn that cast boolits perform differently than full metal jackets. Failure to do so can be catastrophic.

Take a look at this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...new-folks-that

Then read this one:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-you-recommend

Best wishes as you move forward.

Maybe you missed my stupid question comment?

I'm asking questions so I DON'T get someone killed, I haven't been able to find any load data for a Red Dot load other than the Ed Harris rule of thumb. Cast boolits are new to me, so I'm learning what I can as I go, and telling me to "Stop what I'm doing before I get someone killed" doesn't help the learning process.

But thanks to everyone giving me useful advice, Red Dot loads are obviously not what I'm looking for in a CB load, so I'll stick with loading them at under 14gr of powder, as what I'm hearing here is that even that 14 grains is a "hot" Red Dot load. Time for me to look at other options for a PB CB load for plinking purposes.

What exactly do you mean by "2-3 feet of drop"? If you sight in at 100 yards with 13 grains Red Dot, your midpoint max height will be no more than 5".

For 16 grain charges, you need Alliant 2400! What are you trying to accomplish? Red Dot will approximate 22lr in this cartridge, no better velocity, much better BC and terminal energy and penetration.

I was trying to accomplish the building of a load that I could use for plinking with my rifle, but, my rifle has been sighted in for long distance shots, 2" over bullseye at 100 yards, gets me about 1" under bullseye at 300 yards, so when I shoot the red dot loads, I can't successfully hit anything without sighting my rifle in for this particular load. I was working on a load that I could successfully fire in my rifle for practice shooting, and Red Dot loads obviously are not going to work for me. Another reason I wanted to work up this load is that I stock plenty of red dot for both my handgun and shotgun loads, so the option of using it in a plinking rifle round appealed to me.

The max load of Red Dot is obviously not going to work for what I need it to, so I'm going back to Varget powder and resign myself to gc'ing all my boolits.

[portlybowlofpigfat]

hi sweeper , greetings from another new guy .

first thing is you are new and admit to not having much knowladge with cast .. nothing wrong with that . but you should watch how you word your responses if you care to make any friends and get the help you ask for ... the last post you made is not going to win you many friends .

but moving on ... if i read your last post correctly ( i reread it twice to be sure ) my understanding here is .. you want a plinking cast load that is going to shoot to the same point of aim as your jacketed loads at 100-300 yards.
if that is the case .. i agree with wilco. STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING .

if you do realy expect to be able to shoot a differant load without changing your zero be it cast or jacketed you may be to confused to help

[Goatwhiskers]

Sweeper, not to belabor a point or be overly critical, but there is no point in PP a GC boolit. You can PP a GC "style" boolit and eliminate the expense of a GC, or put a check on it, or PP a plain based style, just a waste of time and money to combine the two. GW

[junkbug]

Hey Sweeper, Welcome.

I am no expert, and have only been loading cast bullets for about 6 years, but have been reloading jacketed bullets in surplus rifles for almost 30 years.

The problem is velocity and bullet lube.

You can certainly load a 160 grain cast bullet to the same speed you can load a jacketed bullet. But you will not intentionally hit anything if you just use Lee Liquid Alox or other "standard type" lubes.

Very knowledgable people have spent years working on a lube that will hold up to 2500-2700 fps in a .30 cal. It can be done, but it is not beginners work. Paper patching will accomplish the same, but is its own specialty.

Basically, to approximate surplus ammo trajectory, even at relatively short range like 100-200 yards, you will have to approximate the velocity. Or you can try a radically different bullet weight, like 90 gr, or 215 grains, and hope to "luck out" at a specific range.

I take it your Mosin Nagant no longer has the issue military sight on it, and what you have on it now is not easy or quick to adjust.

Good luck, and be safe.

[Sweeper]

hi sweeper , greetings from another new guy .

first thing is you are new and admit to not having much knowladge with cast .. nothing wrong with that . but you should watch how you word your responses if you care to make any friends and get the help you ask for ... the last post you made is not going to win you many friends .

but moving on ... if i read your last post correctly ( i reread it twice to be sure ) my understanding here is .. you want a plinking cast load that is going to shoot to the same point of aim as your jacketed loads at 100-300 yards.
if that is the case .. i agree with wilco. STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING .

if you do realy expect to be able to shoot a differant load without changing your zero be it cast or jacketed you may be to confused to help

I'm not really confused, just worked a load up to the point where I decided to put the question in my OP to those more knowledgeable than myself. The 16 grain charges have shown no visible indications of overpressure, no funky neck blemishes, splits or anything that would indicate that the load was too hot, BUT, the Ed Harris recommendation was 75% of the load charge, and the manuals I currently have don't even have a Red Dot recommendation, so I decided to ask the question before going any farther. That in itself should be an indication of how careful I am with building my own ammo. I got the answer I was searching for- that the load I had worked up was too hot to be using, and I need to back it off a bit. It is what it is, and the Red Dot load, while I can plink with it in my carbine, is useless in my rifle, so I need to try something different.

Sweeper, not to belabor a point or be overly critical, but there is no point in PP a GC boolit. You can PP a GC "style" boolit and eliminate the expense of a GC, or put a check on it, or PP a plain based style, just a waste of time and money to combine the two. GW

Thanks! I wasn't aware that the paper patching nullified the usefullness of a GC'd boolit (I've been doing both with decent results) but that'll save me a wee bit of both time and money, since I guess doing both is redundant.

Hey Sweeper, Welcome.

I am no expert, and have only been loading cast bullets for about 6 years, but have been reloading jacketed bullets in surplus rifles for almost 30 years.

The problem is velocity and bullet lube.

You can certainly load a 160 grain cast bullet to the same speed you can load a jacketed bullet. But you will not intentionally hit anything if you just use Lee Liquid Alox or other "standard type" lubes.

Very knowledgable people have spent years working on a lube that will hold up to 2500-2700 fps in a .30 cal. It can be done, but it is not beginners work. Paper patching will accomplish the same, but is its own specialty.

Basically, to approximate surplus ammo trajectory, even at relatively short range like 100-200 yards, you will have to approximate the velocity. Or you can try a radically different bullet weight, like 90 gr, or 215 grains, and hope to "luck out" at a specific range.

I take it your Mosin Nagant no longer has the issue military sight on it, and what you have on it now is not easy or quick to adjust.

Good luck, and be safe.

I was hoping to be able to use the same load in both my rifle and my carbine, but the Red Dot load has too much of a rainbow trajectory to be of any use in my rifle. If I could at least adjust for the amount of bullet drop of the Red Dot charge through my scope it would be an option, but at 100 yards, as my rifle is sighted, I can only see the top edge of my target at the bottom of the crosshairs, and that's just not going to work for me.

But yes, my Nugget no longer has the front sight post, or the last 8" of barrel (Or that 6" of counterbore that murdered accuracy) and is equipped with a PE scope mount and a 4-12 power scope. It's more deer rifle than surplus rifle now, and with the cartridges I've loaded in the past, it has achieved sub moa accuracy.

I ask my questions here because this forum has more knowledge of cast boolit loads than even the manuals (most of which I'm still slowly collecting) and I would much rather ask a stupid question than do something stupid, hence why I stopped at the charge I did to ask questions, since none of the data I have in paperback form have any data on this particular powder for a rifle load.


So, I'm going to just replenish my supply of Varget and build gc'd or pp'd ammo for this rifle, as the CB load I have been working on shoots about 3" below bullseye in my rifle, which is acceptable IMO for a cast load versus a nearly max loaded match bullet.

Thanks everyone for the help, now I'm off to load up another batch of 9mm boolits, 'cuz this guy's out of Varget and now knows that that durned pistol powder just won't work for me.

[WILCO]

Maybe you missed my stupid question comment?

I'm asking questions so I DON'T get someone killed, I haven't been able to find any load data for a Red Dot load other than the Ed Harris rule of thumb. Cast boolits are new to me, so I'm learning what I can as I go, and telling me to "Stop what I'm doing before I get someone killed" doesn't help the learning process.

But thanks to everyone giving me useful advice, Red Dot loads are obviously not what I'm looking for in a CB load, so I'll stick with loading them at under 14gr of powder, as what I'm hearing here is that even that 14 grains is a "hot" Red Dot load. Time for me to look at other options for a PB CB load for plinking purposes.



I was trying to accomplish the building of a load that I could use for plinking with my rifle, but, my rifle has been sighted in for long distance shots, 2" over bullseye at 100 yards, gets me about 1" under bullseye at 300 yards, so when I shoot the red dot loads, I can't successfully hit anything without sighting my rifle in for this particular load. I was working on a load that I could successfully fire in my rifle for practice shooting, and Red Dot loads obviously are not going to work for me. Another reason I wanted to work up this load is that I stock plenty of red dot for both my handgun and shotgun loads, so the option of using it in a plinking rifle round appealed to me.

The max load of Red Dot is obviously not going to work for what I need it to, so I'm going back to Varget powder and resign myself to gc'ing all my boolits.

Sweeper,

Have fun going in circles. Not trying to pick a fight, but you clearly didn't read my post fully. You don't understand what you're doing in regards to cast boolits and ultimately, you're going to get someone killed. You've failed to grasp the basic fundamentals between shooting full metal jackets and cast boolits. They are two different worlds and cannot be fully intertwined. My best advice is to stop what you are doing, get a manual related to cast boolits specifically, pick a single cartridge/firearm, and go from there.

[WILCO]

You can certainly load a 160 grain cast bullet to the same speed you can load a jacketed bullet. But you will not intentionally hit anything if you just use Lee Liquid Alox or other "standard type" lubes.

False. Bullet lubes are a part of the equation, but there's many more factors to be considered. Such as alloy BHN, pressures and so forth. Even with paper patching, you cannot achieve full metal jacket velocities or performance. Two different worlds, which is why having a full understanding of cast boolits and their inherent uses is so critical, before there is even one grain of powder spilled in the endeavor of cast boolit shooting.

[WILCO]

Having a manual for cast boolits is key to success. This website is only a resource to expand upon the basic knowledge.

[Sweeper]

Sweeper,

Have fun going in circles. Not trying to pick a fight, but you clearly didn't read my post fully. You don't understand what you're doing in regards to cast boolits and ultimately, you're going to get someone killed. You've failed to grasp the basic fundamentals between shooting full metal jackets and cast boolits. They are two different worlds and cannot be fully intertwined. My best advice is to stop what you are doing, get a manual related to cast boolits specifically, pick a single cartridge/firearm, and go from there.

Wilco, man, I'm here on this forum specifically because I don't fully understand cast boolit reloading, otherwise I wouldn't post the questions that I do. I just can't understand the logic in being told to stop learning how a cast boolit acts with specific velocities and different burn rate powders, paper patched, gas checked or plain based, water hardened vs. air cooled, etc, until I learn how it all works. I don't understand how to learn without applying the knowledge I have, in other words hands on experience. Yes, I load jacketed bullets, in all my firearms, yes, I achieve great results while working well within the load parameters, I even get excellent results loading cb's for my handguns, and getting better results with every batch of my gc'd and pp'd cast boolits. This Red Dot load was the first time I attempted using a fast burning powder to work up a plinking round for a rifle. I used standard basic knowledge of working up a load, and still, even at the 16 grains of powder I loaded, the cases show absolutely no signs of overpressure, no signs of anything at all not being completely normal within the chamber of the rifle, but, it was getting progressively hotter with each batch, and although the signs were not there, I became hesitant to load any hotter, hence, I asked for advice.

I have a few older manuals, and a couple have load data for regular rifle powders, but the only place I've found the Red Dot info was here, by the way, thanks for the link, I'll be ordering or downloading a few of those manuals depending on their availability, the Ed Harris manual I haven't seen yet, but what I've heard it's probably the manual that I need more than the others.