3/8" 100 yard 5 shot group?

[Artful]

Oh and Forrest - Don't think cheaper ammo for 22 LR can't shoot great groups...

My trainer actually likes the greasy subsonic steel cased Russian ammo - go figure



Maybe you should go to some 22LR forums and ask around and educate yourself

Try
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php

See what they say about 100 yard groups - who has shot a tiny

check out the trainer section
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...play.php?f=125

They aint as bad as you seem to think.

[Forrest r]

Well more interesting reading.

We got a post saying a guy with a $4,000 setup (with a tuner) has 3 groups less then 1/2" @ 100yds. I only saw 1 on the 100yd list that was under 1/2", but what do I know? That rifle is a far cry from the origonal posters rifle that can supposidly do 3/8" @ 100yds & a far cry from a cheap trainer with blammo ammo repeatedly hitting a 1/2 bolt head @125yds.

I guess I need to school myself on the "reds" firearms that are out there. Here's a couple that I do play with every now & then.
10m airgun
25m sport pistol
50m free pistol
Attachment 78178

I find it interesting that you talk about how good your trainer is & then show youtubes of people with bull bbl's match chambered rifles shooting at different yardages. Why don't you make a video of you repeatedly hitting a 1/2" bolt head @ 125yds? Better yet why don't you go over to rimfirecenteral & post how you can hit that bolt head all day long @ 125yds & see what a warm welcome you get from the people that as you put, are educated about rimfires.

The trainer section is an interesting section of that website. A lot of people talk about the romanian trainers but I have yet to see anyone there say (Been a member since 2006 on rimfirecenteral) the romanians will out shoot either of these trainers, a mas 45 & a mauser.

Attachment 78174

Or 1 of these trainers for that matter, a springfield m1922

Attachment 78175

So if you don't mind I'd rather stick with the trainers I have.

I find it interesting that you chose to put up links to 10/22's with bull bbl's. Somehow I managed to have 1 of those also.

Attachment 78176

What makes that 1 a little different from most other 10/22's with the factory bull bbl's is the chamber on mine. I rechambered the bbl on the 1 pictured above & put a true match chamber in it. Something none of the bbl mfg's will do. If you don't know why then you need to go over to the 10/22 section on rimfirecenteral & they will learn you why. And why your at it you can look up my posts from 2008 telling about the bbl work/rechamber and the results.

I do like your link about sorting by rim thickness, a big waste of time but it's fun to watch. Again rimfirecenteral has dozens of posts on the subject along with 1000's of recorded rounds from tests, blind studies & factory testing. They all came up the same, big waste of time!!! It's the other end of the ammo that counts. 2/1000's difference in the rim thickness is far less critical than the oal difference of 30/1000's that most cheap "blammo ammo" 22lr ammo has. Most of us use one of these to to measure/sort/test different lots/brands of ammo with. To give you a hint, the average eley 10x can have as much as 4/1000's difference in a single box of ammo but the oal's are all within 1/1000 & the weights are within 1/10gr.

Attachment 78177

I do like the post with the older ammo's listed. You ought to see what they think of remington ammo nowadays over on rimfirecenteral, it ain't pretty. I used to like the old pmc target myself, the korean made ammo with the triangle headstamp. The later made pmc from mexico was terrible & is now the aguila plant. The fed lightnings used to be in the blue/white box with a thunderbolt, shot tons of the stuff. Then they renamed it fed 510's or wal-mart brand 510b. They just changed the name this year back to federal lightnings. Ammo from that era was not the greatest. Do a search on the kimber 82g, it's very interesting reading. Kimber got a contract to build 20,000 rifles for the gov & had set accuracy standards. Each rifle was to be tested & approved. Kimber found that the hardest part of filling the contract was not building the rifles, but testing them. They couldn't find any ammo that would repeatedly hold the accuracy standards that the gov set. You would be amazed @ what the gov wanted & the struggle that kimber had to find ammo that would do it repeatedly.

I'm not an expert by any means but I've managed to own a couple 22's for decades & managed to shoot a little 3p/4p/silhouettes & br. Still got a tuner laying around along with a 36x scope with lockers, win 52's, rem 40x's along with a couple of anschutz's & a hand full of quality sporters with match bbl's to play with & a couple of plain old classic sporters & even a couple of trainers.

I've also managed to rebarrel a couple rifles, recut chambers, rework bolt & firing pins for more consistent ignition & faster lock time. A ton of trigger work along with piller bedding, sight/scope fitting along with drilling & tapping the holes for them.

Now if you want to get into rimfire pistols, I could easily go on for hours about them also.

At the end of the day people are spending $2000 to buy the best sporter/glass in the business. And testing/buying $15+ a box ammo to get a rifle that will shoot 1" groups @ 100yds to be competitive. If you think that these $100 beaters with 40+ year old compressed fp springs can even begin to have enough smack to give consistent ignition to that $4.00 a box ammo, guess again. You'll find that the fp springs are 1/4" to 1/2" shorter than new ones just from sitting compressed in the bolts for decades.

Maybe I'm not the 1 that needs schooled.

[Forrest r]

Hay lookie there, managed another post over on rimfirecenteral.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=510947

And that link goes to a specific thread, not a section in general like other peoples links.

Just happen to be a 541-s sporter fan myself ( own 2 of them also). Nice little rifles with factory engraving, 3-way adjustable triggers & match chambers from the factory.

Attachment 78180

It's a good thread, this guys trying to get 3/8" groups @ 100yds from his 541-s rifle. As you can see some mixed answers & not a very warm reception. He doesn't want to permanently alter the rifle because they're selling for around $900 right now in their original unaltered mint condition.

That's a look into what long time competitors, br shooters & a state champ think about the 3/8" @ 100yd thing. And of course you got me (that some people say I need schoolin on rimfire) just trying to help the guy reach his goal.

forrest r

[jcwit]

OK Forrest, it's impossible to shoot a 3/8 inch group with virtually any .22 rimfire rifle, regardless of the ammo used. And everyone claiming they have done it, its a one time happening and all the flyers happened to fly into the one hole group.

Happy now?

[waksupi]

If you are going to try for those itty bitty groups, start off by weighing each round of ammunition.

[Herb in Pa]

Attachment 78202What Forrest R said............................

[Artful]

forrest r, I'll agree to disagree about some of it - and I never said all day long (Thanks for making me a better marksman)
- but yep a full magazine of 5 rounds more than once.
FP spring and firing pin/ejector are just fine on my 1969 trainer - thanks for asking
I'll declare you have more 22 RF's than I do and more expensive to boot! - Nice Toy Box you got there
- If you get out to AZ this winter let me know and we can do a Video.
I've tried video's on my cell phone and don't like the results.


as far as the average group sizes - if your under 1/2 inch on average, wouldn't you agree some are going to be larger and some smaller?
But of course none are possible as to be as small as 3/8 of an inch.

Oh, and Nice toys for Herb in Pa, as well.

[LAH]

I'm a sixgun shooter but since I've retired & only do bullets I'm expanding my interest to plenty of bench time with a few rifles. Thought I'd start with something simple so spent a couple years on the 1000 yard line but too much traveling to shoot that so I went to rimfires.

I love to shoot offhand with my two sporters, one Marlin, one CZ. But the bench was still calling so I "got me" an Anschutz 1411. My bench set up isn't the best but I used it on the 1000 yard bench & fired many groups under six inches & even under 5 inches for 5 shots.

BUT BUT BUT I've found nothing to this point to compare with the 22 off the bench. For me at least, there is nothing easy about it. If I can get my rifle to track in the bags correctly I can do 1/4 inch, 5 shot, 50 yard groups, but things have to be correct. Others I'm sure can do better & do it easier but I've not learned the trade as of yet.

Dave Scovill has been good to me over the years, testing my bullets & giving favorable write ups. His results with our bullets were in line with our testing so I’ll not call his hand on the 3/8 inch group but I will say: He’s a better shot than I am but that’s not saying much.

[45 2.1]

100 yd, 22 rimfire, 5 shot group........... 0.280"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLjQajes0C4

[Herb in Pa]

Nice research, now find the equipment list and ammo used..................sure won't be run of the mill

[Forrest r]

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. More learnin:
re·peat·ed·ly [ ri ptədlee ]
again and again: again and again, or on several occasions
Synonyms: recurrently, frequently, constantly, continually, repetitively, time after time, over and over again, again and again

I guess I din't understand what repeatedly meant.

Like I said, I'm no expert by any means but I believe I do have a understanding of rimfires & what they can do.

Is a 3/8" 5-shot group possible @ 100yds? YES!!! Is it possible to do a 3/8" 5-shot group with $100 beaters & blammo ammo? YES, but you'd have better odds @ winning the lottery than shooting that group. Is the ammo the guy used able to hold 3/8" groups @ 5-shot 100yds? YES, but only if the shooter is bad enough that 3 of his 5 shots were an inch or 2 off & those bullets lucked into that group.

There's a couple guys over on rimfire centeral that will get a 3/8 5-shot group once every year or 2. But they're not using "run of the mill" (nice herb) beaters & blammo ammo. There using $3000 custom rigs & $15+ boxes of select lots of ammo along with wind flags & wind indicators and bbl tuners along with 36x glass. that's what they do all year long when they go to the range, shoot rimfire br. And yes, the 1 guy changes his fp spring out every year.

You guys can believe whatever you want, I'm glad that you think the guy did shoot that 3/8" group. Myself, I just don't see it happening with that equipment/ammo.

Are the winchester 69a a good rifle? Absolutely!!! There a classic that any rimfire shooter would be proud to own/use. Could of his 69a been the target version of that rifle? Absolutely!!! But even the 69a target models were winchester's bottom of the bbl starter model for beginners & were never designed for such accuracy. Heck their 52's would be in the fight of their life to be able to come up with a 3/8" 5-shot group. Winchester quit making the 69a's in 1963, back then 3# triggers were the norm along with any (winchester, remington, anschutz,savage, etc) mfg base target models were designed to hold the 10-ring on an nra target. That's 3moa or the 10-ring is 3 inches round. So the guy used the best 69a target model in the hole wide world, the rifle was never designed or built for that kind of accuracy.

So that put it in the realm of the shooter actually had to miss his aiming point to get the shots to fall into a 3/8" group @ 100yds because the equipment was never designed/built to hold that accuracy standard.

I'm not going to say too much about the 4x scope other than it's not the best choice to use when shooting paper @ 100yds. Yes, I know weaver had different reticles in their scopes & that they are of excellent quality. But even if he had the rare target dot reticle in his 4x, he still had the cards stacked against him. I do know a little about the target dot reticles in the low powered weaver scopes. A anschutz fs with a 3x weaver scope with a target dot reticle.
Attachment 78297

The ammo that was used isn't target grade/quality by any means. Is it a good ammo for general plinking/hunting? Absolutely!!! Was it ever made/designed or tested @ the factory to hold a standard of 1moa? Absolutely not!!!!! That's why it's in the target/plinking section on their website. They do have a competition selection for a reason. Personally I've never seen min-mags do better than a sd of 30 or anyone else that ever tested it do better than a sd of 30. Maybe people ought to do a little home work & play around with a ballistics calculator & plug in some #'s to see what a 22lr will actually have to do sd wise to be able to mechanically (without any wind) be able to hold a 3/8" group @ 100yds. You'll learn real quickly why people are buying/using $15+ a box ammo on the 100yd line.

So here we go again, the shooter would actually have to miss/be off his aiming point to be able to have the blammo ammo to hit into a 3/8" group because the mini-mags were never designed or made to the quality standards it takes to hold a group that small.

I won't even bring wind into this conversation but maybe when you play with the ballistics calculator you might consider seeing what a light 3 to 5 mph wind will do that bullet.

So in my eyes I'm looking at a guy who used a 50 year old basic starter rifle for kids using 1 of the worst choices possible for a scope for target shooting @ 100yds & using blammo ammo that was never made to even hold 1 moa (I'll make this part easy) @ an indoor range so wind wasn't a factor.

So, you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want.

[WILCO]

I have to respectfully call BS.

Hi Randy!

Oswald hit Kennedy with that Carcano, so anything is possible.

[WILCO]

If you are going to try for those itty bitty groups, start off by weighing each round of ammunition.

I used to mic each round for O.A.L. before sporter rifle matches.
Granted, it was CCI Blazers, but I did all right.

[jcwit]

So the guy claims he made a 3/8" group at 100 yds with an older rifle and non target ammo.

In Hilliary's words, "What does it matter".

[45 2.1]

In Hilliary's words, "What does it matter".

It matters because there are people who "think" only custom equipment will do what they want. They throw money at a problem just like the government without so much of a thought as to why they don't get results with something that quite possibly could be capable. Most of those older rifles were built at a time when manufacturers took pride in their product and quite a few will do outstanding work when you feed them right.

If anyone has reason to, he can take some of the trash 22 ammo we have now (that will hardly do 1-1/4" at 50 yards), swage it in on Paco's Accurizer so it fits his chamber and throat and see what it does. If you try it and experiment some with it, you'll probably like the results AND it will teach you some things about accuracy.

[W.R.Buchanan]

ForrestR I want to see some better pics of the Mauser you have. Is it a single shot? ES340B? If so it looks like a brother to mine. Mine was built in 1929 and I'd like to compare SN's as well. I've had mine since 1968 when I paid $35 and my Rem 514 for it. Later bought the 514 back for $10 at a gun show a few years later.

These guns are routinely billed as Training Rifles however they are actually Target rifles from the 20'-30's The .22 Mauser Training rifles were similar to the Springfield training rifles in that they were modified M98's. Mine actually has a miniature Mauser action made by Walther. Kimber's use an action very similar with the same controlled round feed. My gun is single shot and has a divot in the bottom of the receiver, you simply drop a round into the receiver and close the bolt. The bolt picks the round up and feeds it to the chamber as fast as you can close the bolt..

M2 Springfield's were also built as Target Rifles from the start, as were M52 Winchesters. There was an M2 at the store where I got the Mauser in 1968 for $90 and I had the money but my Mom wouldn't let me buy it. Should have done it anyway. I have seen several go for in excess of $3200. most are in the $1600-2000 range.

Gun Traders has my gun at around $850. I never sell it until I'm ready to check out.

Also guys there is no need to get puffy about all this. We are just having a friendly discussion here.
Just because someone calls BS doesn't mean they're ready to fight about it...

Although it does make for a lively discussion.

Randy

[45 2.1]

The .22 Mauser Training rifles were similar to the Springfield training rifles in that they were modified M98's. Randy

Randy, the .22 Mauser trainers are basically the same exact rifle you have and differ only in the stocking being a military type stock and band arrangement. I have seen no German ones like you describe except for the Israel's 22s that were like that.

[jcwit]

It matters because there are people who "think" only custom equipment will do what they want. They throw money at a problem just like the government without so much of a thought as to why they don't get results with something that quite possibly could be capable. Most of those older rifles were built at a time when manufacturers took pride in their product and quite a few will do outstanding work when you feed them right.

If anyone has reason to, he can take some of the trash 22 ammo we have now (that will hardly do 1-1/4" at 50 yards), swage it in on Paco's Accurizer so it fits his chamber and throat and see what it does. If you try it and experiment some with it, you'll probably like the results AND it will teach you some things about accuracy.

It was ment as a joke!

[Herb in Pa]

Attachment 78343

It matters because there are people who "think" only custom equipment will do what they want. They throw money at a problem just like the government without so much of a thought as to why they don't get results with something that quite possibly could be capable. Most of those older rifles were built at a time when manufacturers took pride in their product and quite a few will do outstanding work when you feed them right.

YAWN...................................

If anyone has reason to, he can take some of the trash 22 ammo we have now (that will hardly do 1-1/4" at 50 yards), swage it in on Paco's Accurizer so it fits his chamber and throat and see what it does. If you try it and experiment some with it, you'll probably like the results AND it will teach you some things about accuracy.

[Artful]

Attachment 78343

A horder!

Don't let the media know that you have 10's of thousands of rounds of ammunition - they'll lynch ya.