MiHec 311410 Cramer

[Captain_Howdy]

All of my hollowpoint pins are too big, the long ones are just more obvious. I'm not gonna chance ruining the mold by using any of them. I may be able to make them useable by chucking them up in a drill and touching them against an old wetstone for sharpening knives. But I don't know. Maybe if it aint pouring rain or 100 degrees later this eve I may cast up some solids. I'm not overly picky but options are always nice to have.

[YunGun]

As promised, here's a few pics. Water-dropped range scrap+lino. 'As cast' weight of the small cavity boolit was ~127gr. with <1gr variation once I got a rhythm going. End product fully dressed & ready to load weighed in right at 132gr. 30-06 rounds loaded w/21.5gr 2400. When the first jug (& apparently the bullet!) 'exploded' the shrapnel punched holes in the two neighboring jugs as well; 3 for 1. Recovered fragments weighed 45 & 46gr. Far more fragmentation than I expected, really wondering how much will be left of the large HP boolits when I get around to loading & shooting them; thinkin I should prolly soften my alloy some more!

[longbow]

I just posted my 316410 range results as well. Similar results with the HP and jug full of water only I used the long HP pins.

I shot one then my son shot one. Both jugs simply exploded and the contents became a fine mist. I did not find anything of the boolits but that impact was impressive.

I am thinking this would be a devastating varmint boolit!

Mine were also air cooled range scrap which from previous HP tests I knew was a bit brittle for expansion but I want explosive results anyway.

They also shot well and accuracy is quite good. I used the PB version over 20 grs. IMR4227 with COW filler. I would guess we are getting similar velocities with these loads.

Did you shoot any groups? If so how did they do?

Good fun! I for one am exceptionally happy with the mould.

Longbow

[Captain_Howdy]

I haven't fired any yet...still waiting on my gas checks to get here. But I did finally get around to firing up the pot tonight. Here are a few I cast. I did make some duds, but mostly they came out great. I am not gonna use either HP pin sets for now as both sets are too big. My alloy may be too soft though, or maybe my bullet seating stem in my harnady die is just too aggressive as it leaves a very deep seating ring on the bullet ogive--but it leaves a ring on the v-max bullets too...if I had a lathe I would custom build a seating stem to match the nose profile better. Anyway...I thought I would leave this here...everyone likes pictures...my camera sucks...just more to look at though!

[cbrick]

Water-dropped range scrap+lino.

Yikes, added lino and then water dropped.

Far more fragmentation than I expected, really wondering how much will be left of the large HP boolits when I get around to loading & shooting them;

Nothing will be left and there will be very little to no penetration.

thinkin I should prolly soften my alloy some more!

Soften some more? Your shooting diamonds here, what were you shooting before if these are already softened?

Try using just the range scrap with 2% Sn added. Or clip-on WW with 2% Sn. A 50/50 blend of clip-on - stick-on WW with 2% Sn would be an ideal hollow point alloy. At the very least drop the lino and add the tin. The next key to the boolit not coming completely apart is velocity, even with an ideal HP alloy the boolit will simply self destruct on contact if driven too fast. A soft, malleable alloy at around 1800 fps max, beyond that a solid point would work better.

There has been a huge amount of testing & work done with HP's, Glen Fryxell has tested them extensively and you can find his articles on the LASC web site. Numerous threads on this site on the effects of HP boolits and alloys, velocity.

Rick

EDIT to add: Penetration comes from momentum. Momentum comes from weight at a ratio of 4-1 to velocity. As you can see from your third photo and the gas check on the bottom, no weight left meaning no penetration.

[YunGun]

Thanks for the comments cbrick. I have spent a fair amount of time reading & re-reading the various sources you referred to so I am at least passingly aware of these details despite the fact that I have not necessarily implemented all of that information yet. The fragmentation was in no way unexpected, I was just a bit surprised by the degree of fragmentation.

As longbow mentioned, I had intended for them to be somewhat brittle and explosive as the only things I 'hunt' are paper & jugs so penetration is not an issue in the slightest, and they far exceeded my expectations in that regard.

Soften some more? Your shooting diamonds here, what were you shooting before if these are already softened?

When I first began casting, I started with just straight range scrap. The current alloy is the remainder of a completely unscientific mix from my first experimentation with adding lino to the straight range scrap to harden it a bit as I was consistently seeing a few distinct fliers out of an otherwise decent group. I don't know the BHN as I don't have a tester and I already suspected that it was way too hard for 'proper' HP expansion, but its what I had on hand when I was ready to throw some of these though, so that's what was used.

Additionally, I'm hampered by the fact that only one of my load books even lists data for a 130gr CB, & of course that one is the only plain-base bullet listed so the load data & estimated velocities just don't match up for this one. The most relevant data I've found thus far is from the CastPics load data database, which lists:
30-06 Springfield Lyman #311410 130gr Alliant 2400 23(start) 27(max) 2272fps(max chg velocity) from an unknown firearm/barrel length. No chrony either so I have no idea just how fast those were actually moving, but given my charge of 21.5gr 2400, I'd have guesstimated it to be somewhere in the vicinity of 1800fps.

This was also just the first load that was tried; Primarily just threw together a safe load that would hopefully be relatively accurate just so I could send some of these downrange & cull a few of these vicious plastic jugs that seem to be breeding like rabbits. I've got several other powders I plan to try, not to mention playing with the alloy some more; I've hardly even begun testing! I was not/am not really worried about it one way or the other; just gives me some more variables to play with that means a lot more loading & shooting to enjoy!

[L1A1Rocker]

As promised, here's a few pics. Water-dropped range scrap+lino. 'As cast' weight of the small cavity boolit was ~127gr. with <1gr variation once I got a rhythm going. End product fully dressed & ready to load weighed in right at 132gr. 30-06 rounds loaded w/21.5gr 2400. When the first jug (& apparently the bullet!) 'exploded' the shrapnel punched holes in the two neighboring jugs as well; 3 for 1. Recovered fragments weighed 45 & 46gr. Far more fragmentation than I expected, really wondering how much will be left of the large HP boolits when I get around to loading & shooting them; thinkin I should prolly soften my alloy some more!

WOW!!! Now THAT'S what I'm wanting to get, but thought I'd need the long pins to get it. I'm wanting a varmint grenade for the 300BLK.

Question for the experts please. I have at my disposal; COWW, SOWW, and tin. Is there a formula to get a good hard, brittle allow from these ingredients, or do I need to buy a high antimony alloy to add?

[cbrick]

I'll offer a suggestion.

Try your COWW + 2% Sn air cooled first. I am shooting that in a 30 Carbine wimpy, powder puff load of about 900 fps in a 7 1/2 inch Ruger revolver, using the short pins. This wimp load at that velocity is blowing apart 1 gallon milk jugs. If you add the additional velocity you'll gain from your rifle (and load) you may be quite surprised to see the results your looking for. Truth is this could well be more dramatic than the brittle boolit your thinking of because not only will the nose still come apart with the softer alloy (water is a very hard medium) but you will still have some boolit mass to carry through as opposed to blowing up at the surface.

Try it, what do you have to loose?

Rick

[xacex]

As promised, here's a few pics. Water-dropped range scrap+lino. 'As cast' weight of the small cavity boolit was ~127gr. with <1gr variation once I got a rhythm going. End product fully dressed & ready to load weighed in right at 132gr. 30-06 rounds loaded w/21.5gr 2400. When the first jug (& apparently the bullet!) 'exploded' the shrapnel punched holes in the two neighboring jugs as well; 3 for 1. Recovered fragments weighed 45 & 46gr. Far more fragmentation than I expected, really wondering how much will be left of the large HP boolits when I get around to loading & shooting them; thinkin I should prolly soften my alloy some more!

Nice! I expected that kind of result with the long pins, but that hard alloy really broke apart bad with the short pin. Have you tried the 30-30's yet? My brother has been begging me for some loaded in a 30-30 for the gopher problem at his place. I think a red dot load in a 30-30 would work nice with this boolit.

[longbow]

I wasn't worried about brittle either as the intent was to blow up rogue water jugs and they did that well.

Rick has you covered for softer and expansion.

If you want brittle, try oven heat treating and quenching for maximum hardness. Alternately read the Ness Safety Bullet article which make for very good reading. The Ness bullet was designed to be made brittle so it would blow up on ANYTHING and eliminate ricochets.

I will try softer after I quit having fun with these. I made an expansion tester using Ziploc bags full of water hanging 2' deep then a catch bucket filled with rags. I haven't even used the completed expansion tester but did prove out the principle by shooting .44 mag HP's through water jugs then catching the expanded boolits in a rag bag. Worked pretty well. A guy runs out of jugs pretty quick but Ziploc bags are cheap and available.

I would like to see how they work when made of a more ductile alloy and intended to penetrate while mushrooming as well.

Longbow

[YunGun]

Yeah, I was anticipating that with the deeper cavity, but not so much with the smaller one. No, I haven't tried the 30-30's yet; I fully intended to alternate between the two, then in my rush to get to the range while it was still cool in the morning I ran off & left the box of 30-30 rounds at home!

I will try softer after I quit having fun with these.

Me too, but that's still a ways off I think!

[wlc]

I know Miha is aware of the problem with the long pins. I just checked mine last night and they too won't allow the mold to close. Does anyone know if he is just gonna replace all the long pins for everyone or on a case by case basis??

[YunGun]

It sounds to me like he's already planning on replacing them for everyone, but that's just conjecture on my part.
You could send him a PM just to be sure, that's what I did....

[doctorggg]

I also asked him to replace mine. He originally asked me to chuck them in a drill and use sandpaper. I don't find this acceptable for a custom precision mold. I know I would screw it up. A machinist I am not. Give me a tooth and I can "go to town."

[xacex]

Give me a tooth and I can "go to town."

Ugg...anyone else just hear that drill in their head. Doc, more gas!

[MiHec]

It sounds to me like he's already planning on replacing them for everyone, but that's just conjecture on my part.
You could send him a PM just to be sure, that's what I did....

Yes - I will replace all pins (short ones also). Just need few days.......

[cbrick]

My short pins and flat point pins are a perfect fit in both of my 4 cavity molds, only the long pins are too large to allow the blocks to close.

Both of my 4 cavs are a joy to cast with, both are works of brass art from the master. Thanks Miha.

Rick

[longbow]

Mine are all good now Miha no need to send me any pins.

I was out again last night helping water escape from various rogue jugs. They do pop well! I liberated lots of water.

I managed to recover a few boolit fragments but not many and not big. They blowed up real good!

I have the same comment as Rick ~ my mould is beautiful and casts as good as it looks! And to top it off this is a boolit my .303's seem to like too. It shoots well in all of them so far. Win! Win! Win!

So far the very first load tried has given me what I consider excellent accuracy from my old milsurps. Some of the best groups I have shot with any boolit so far.

How are you guys finding accuracy?

Longbow

[Captain_Howdy]

Got out to the range today to try these out in my 300 BLK. Using a mix of range scrap lead with a bit of solder to help fill, Hornady 308 gas checks, and my first time using Lil Gun...the weapon functioned with no problems.

My accuracy was all over the place so I know my first loading needs work. I was happy with the Lil Gun...it seems to be somewhat smoother than the H110 I normally use with the Hornady V-Max bullets. I cant explain it really...the thing just doesn't seem so 'abrupt' with the Lil Gun. My starting load was @ 17.5 grains. I am gonna try 18 with my next loads and leave it there if there are no pressure issues.

It was raining so I didn't put any effort into recovering any projectiles. So I have no idea what the soft lead bullets are doing when they impact.

I think I have a bit of room so I am going to move my OAL out a bit as well to see if that may help accuracy increase...I am thinking I may have too much bore jump, but I have to be careful with rib clearance in the magazine as well...but I have noticed my gun likes the bullets to run a little faster than slower.

My testing was @ 25 yds with MBUS sights so to be honest I wasn't expecting a whole lot. I was mainly checking for function and first initial impressions.

So far I am hoping with a little tweaking I can get this bullet to tighten up. If I can it will be a winner. If it doesn't then I don't think it will be a good option for the 300 BLK.

I will edit this in a few minutes to add a few pics.


Here are a few targets. The top target is 3 rounds of 110 grain V-Max over 20 grains of H110. The bottom targets are the MiHec flatpoint solids over 17.5 Lil Gun. At 25 yards this is unacceptable accuracy for me at this point...all targets fired at today in the rain!

Oh yea, forgot to mention...I had no signs of leading...but I only fired fifteen rounds.

[longbow]

Here is a photo of recovered boolit bits after dispatching water jugs. I liberated a lot of water.

On those jugs that didn't totally explode, there was a nice round .30 cal hole in the front and a peppered back with no large holes!

I stacked 4 jugs deep and shot but only the first two jugs did much and fell over so I fired again and the next pair did the same. I recovered about half the top batch from one jug and half from the other. I recovered most of the bottom batch from one jug and had to dig a couple of bits out of the backside of the first jug. American penny shown for scale (Canadian pennies are extinct now).

These are air cooled range scrap and with the long pins and plain base. They simply explode and take the jug with them! There is little penetration at all with small fragments making it through the backside of one jug and into the next. Pretty destructive.

The load was 20 grs. IMR4227 with COW/graphite filler. Gun was Lee Enfield No. 4 .303 British.

I am not much of a varmint hunter but these would certainly ruin a small varmint's day!

Longbow