Interesting Video on Fitting a Mauser Barrel

[MBTcustom]

Well I didn't understand, that is why I asked. Us mortal folks don't have the means or methods to make a bearing from scratch, we rely on purchasing things like this, and making it work. As far as inducing stress in a barrel by using a spider on the outboard side to position a barrel and a 4 jaw chuck with something like a copper wire, or even a spider chuck itself, you will never convince me of that. Or, the hundreds of benchrest rifle smiths that use this method, or the old way of using a steady, and produce the incredibly small groups being shot today.

I submit to you, you should contact one or two of these renowned folks, tell them your method is hands down better and can make a more accurate chambering job that will reduce groups in a measurable way, and I'll stand corrected. If you would like some names, let me know.

BR shooter, first, let me say that I consider you a friend as I do every one here on the forum (until they convince me otherwise), and I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, or belittle anyone.

All I'm saying is that the idea that target barrel bores are more than .002 out of straight end to end, is silly, and would be silly to anyone who actually knows how to look down a barrel.
Also, anyone who tries to tell me (like lots of these certified, bonafide, super duper, bench rest smiths) that this is proven by how far the tail stock end of the barrel is running eccentric has no idea what is really going on with that barrel.
None of my rifles are winning bench rest matches yet, but my work is orbiting the earth if that means anything to anybody.

We are all mere mortals, but some of us have indicators and know how to read them LOL!

I'm just talking about science, and superstition does not enter into it. If you have a smith you trust, then stick to him and his method. After all it doesn't matter if he warps the barrel slightly in the lathe as long as the rifle prints correctly. However, that's the shooters point of view. I'm coming from the gunsmiths point of view, and part of advancing in any field is research and experimentation which is what I have been devoting every shred of my spare time to.

I simply saw a flaw in the video, and it happened to be a pet peeve of mine, so I said something.
Heck, maybe somebody will get something out of my opinion, but if not, no big deal. I think what I have said should be considered, especially the next time you are setting up a barrel in the lathe, but if you think what I have seen in my indicators is heresy, then don't give it another thought! It's nothing to get bent over.

[Willbird]

Believe me Goodsteel it was aprox .03 on the inside.

And honestly when we put a chamber in we for the most part want it parallal to the bore, if you can indicate a few inches of bore and get .0000 and .0000 on each end of that couple inches you are good to go to chamber, any twist or other thing that the holding creates is a temporary situation.

Even a "tight neck" has .002 "slop"....heck one guy I used to type back and forth with on Benchrest central (I think it was) used to chamber his barrels totally by hand, he had a friend who could run the threads and such to fit his Stolle action, and he had a "pit" in his shed out back that he put the barrel down in, and he ran the reamer in with a T handle tap wrench, took him about 45 minutes. The BR shooters make side bets for the little packages of nabisco snack crackers..they call them "nabs" and he wins or won his share of "nabs" with those barrels. He had worked with a reamer maker to get a reamer setup to give him the chamber he wanted using his method.

And when I used the steady as a plain bearing I TURNED the outside of the bearing true to the bore.

I have built a handful of rifles that all shoot into 1/4 moa using several different methods, chambering is NOT rocket science, the reamer has a pilot on it, some of the setups seem to be geared towards ID grinding a chamber with no reamer or pilot involved at all.

I highly doubt you can make any permanent change to a heavy contour barrel with a copper wire hoop in a 4 jaw, and 4 setscrews on the muzzle end, and honestly if the last few inches of barrel are straight when I run the reamer in, all is exactly as I want it to be.

I have worked with a lot of different stuff and I have never been able to bend a part permenantly with some little setscrews and inch lbs of torque...the muzzle spider bolts need to be just snug enough so the barrel does not rattle around....they have the ability to use the barrel as a lever, and could even have delrin noses I bet.

[Willbird]

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...ghtness-Issues

Read over this thread here for some interesting data, some very good well respected people said .004 off center (.008 TIR) is about average, and they MIGHT CONSIDER rejecting stuff that was .03.

[Willbird]

I just grabbed the chunk of barrel I was talking about, might as well say it is a PacNor, it is a 1/8 twist, and measuring at the "muzzle" end I get .286 one side and .311 the other side, which should give us actually .05 TIR runout ?? That was dead center in the middle of a 34" blank. Customer got 17" I got to keep 17" to fit to a 310 martini action.

[MBTcustom]

I just grabbed the chunk of barrel I was talking about, might as well say it is a PacNor, it is a 1/8 twist, and measuring at the "muzzle" end I get .286 one side and .311 the other side, which should give us actually .05 TIR runout ?? That was dead center in the middle of a 34" blank. Customer got 17" I got to keep 17" to fit to a 310 martini action.

Good grief! They don't happen to ship USPS do they?

I have never had a barrel that bad come through the shop except a Stevens shotgun barrel I cut off once.
Like I said, Kreiger guarantees .002 end to end.

[Willbird]

Good grief! They don't happen to ship USPS do they? LOL!

USPS cannot (I hope anyway) introduce a runout between ID and OD . I just faced it off quick in a 3 jaw and took the ID burr off with an rcbs case neck chamfering tool, and tried my best to get a picture to show what is up.



This was taken with the camera pretty square to the end, played with angles and stuff, flash and no flash, this was the best I could get easily.

The one guy in the thread I just linked dialed a barrel all in, cut off 4" and had .009 TIR (and that barrel was a Krieger).

Bill

[Willbird]

Just measured it again with calipers making sure I was in a groove. .287 one side, .312 the other. .833 muzzle on a 34" blank, so it was not some skinny contour . I cannot remember if it was #7 or #8. I have a 30" Shilen #6 at hand and it has a .671 muzzle.

They may have just had a but too much tailstock pressure when they turned the contour, with it cut in half I have no way of knowing now how straight or crooked the bore was.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

We're these barrels profiled before they were cut?

Just got off the phone with Green Mountian. Guy told me that no one had asked him that question in a long time. He put me on hold and talked to manufacturing. He said they reject everything that is more than .005 TIR on the bore. He also said that has no bearing on what the outside of the barrel is doing. The only way to match the outside to the inside is to carefully profile it after perfect centers have been cut.

[Willbird]

We're these barrels profiled before they were cut?

Just got off the phone with Green Mountian. Guy told me that no one had asked him that question in a long time. He put me on hold and talked to manufacturing. He said they reject everything that is more than .005 TIR on the bore. He also said that has no bearing on what the outside of the barrel is doing. The only way to match the outside to the inside is to carefully profile it after perfect centers have been cut.

The 34" barrel was purchased profiled.

I still am not sure what exactly GM is talking about, sounds to me they mean the concentricity of the muzzle and the breech end to the portion of the ID you can access there, and they are not talking about what the concentricity would be say if you cut the barrel up into 1" slices and checked ID to OD.

In the thread I referenced one poster set a Krieger up with the muzzle end dialed in dead nuts, cut off 4", then had .009 TIR runout from removing 4" of the barrel...leading him to think the bore curved .0045 (to give .009 TIR) in that 4" distance.

Some of it has to do with the steel bar stock barrels are made from.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

Well, just because you slice up a barrel and measure it, doesn't mean it's hot a hook in it (although it could). It simply means that the outside of the barrel does not run true to the inside for whatever reason.
I got curious about this today, and I called Kreiger, Green Mountain, Shilin, PacNor and McGowen.
I asked each of them what their tolerance was on straightness. Then I spent the next 15-20 minutes trying to get somebody from the manufacturing line that knew what I was talking about.
The answer was the same across all companies (except Shilin, who is still getting back to me). .002-.005 end to end straightness is there standard. Some have a machine that uses light to measure this, and some have inspectors at every stage of the barrel making process that look down the barrel's to determine straightness, and they all have a big dumpster out back full of rejects.
Each one told me that if I looked down the barrel and could determine a hook, to send the barrel back to them, and they would replace it.
Each one informed me that the inside of the barrel cannot be measured from the outside of the barrel, and the tolerance they have on the concentricity of the outside of the barrel is looser than what they hold the inside to, and may or may not be perfectly aligned with the inside.

I'm not knocking your experience Willbird, and I'm not arguing at all with what you have presented. I'm just telling my side, and comparing it to your side.
So far, I'm thinking that they all let a few slip by that are not perfectly straight, but they all will replace the barrel if brought to their attention.
Please don't take offense. This is a good thread.

[Willbird]

But the outside is very easily checked with a dial indicator. So to explain the test better, check the OD, even OD grind it if you want it super nice, then slice up in 1" sections and check ID/OD concentricity.

[MBTcustom]

Or you could just look down it? I don't understand why I would want to turn a perfectly good Krieger into a California roll. LOL! (Ok, I cracked myself up a little with that one LOL!)

[Willbird]

Or you could just look down it? I do t understand why I would want to turn a perfectly good Krieger into a California roll. LOL! (Ok, I cracked myself up a little with that one LOL!)

It would not have to be a standalone experiment, you could do "ballistics by the inch" too .

But yes looking down them has been used for many many generations but does it give you a value for "crooked as a dogs hind leg" ?? You could also do it once a barrel was shot out. Even 4" or 6" lengths would give you data, and you could still make muzzle brakes out of them .

[MBTcustom]

It would not have to be a standalone experiment, you could do "ballistics by the inch" too .

But yes looking down them has been used for many many generations but does it give you a value for "crooked as a dogs hind leg" ?? You could also do it once a barrel was shot out. Even 4" or 6" lengths would give you data, and you could still make muzzle brakes out of them .

Yeah, I can't argue with that.
However that would be a painful experiment! I don't think any krieger gets trashed if its over 16" long. I'll milk those babies for every shot they're worth.
Wish I had the money to buy barrels from each of the major manufacturers, and just saw 'em up in the name of science, and eyeball calibration.

[Willbird]

Yeah, I can't argue with that.
However that would be a painful experiment! I don't think any krieger gets trashed if its over 16" long. I'll milk those babies for every shot they're worth.
Wish I had the money to buy barrels from each of the major manufacturers, and just saw 'em up in the name of science, and eyeball calibration.

I dunno if you have ever read any articles the guy who tests Sierra bullets has written for Precision Shooting, he would be a good example of somebody who shoots out a variety of barrels (not sure about Kriegers tho) but he did one blind test of about 6 barrels where 3 were cryo and 3 were not. It was a truly blind test, he did not know which was which....he had "gut feelings" over their lifespan which was was which based on how they fouled and cleaned, etc.

But in the end he was totally wrong with his guesses, and in actual results you could not pick the cryo barrels out by looking at ANY of the actual data.

Bill

[B R Shooter]

I recently had a barrel in to chamber and then cut off short and install a brake. Why these military types like and 20" barrels is beyond me. Anyway, this is from one of the top makers. He wanted me to turn the brake to the profile of the barrel, make it look like the barrel. Well, you have to use the bore to install a brake, and the OD was running out so much, I told him I wouldn't profile it. I would have had to cut back into the barrel and somehow try and blend it in. I just left the brake big, made a taper transition.

I'm not sure a maker checks the bore straightness as part of their normal QC. I have noticed that in the past 10 years or so, it seems barrels are drilled much straighter than they used to be. This is by eyeball, once set up through the headstock.

Another point to make, just for grins, I indicate both ends true, even though there is always some runout in the bore. I change barrels often I suppose, and don't want one barrel shooting into next week from one to another. However, there are those that use the drilled "drift" to advantage. One well known and renowned smith, uses the range rods and will move the muzzle end of the barrel wherever it needs to be, to get the first several inches of the breech end in alignment of the bore. then, once threaded, he will "clock"the barrel so it points up. He does most of his work for the 1000 and 600 yard shooters, and that elevation works for them.

I think Brownells used to sell brass bore rods, that you would drop down a barrel, and if hung up, it was drilled too far out. Maybe that was to check for it being bent, don't remember.

Anyway, I've had no intention to criticize here, just ask questions. Everyone seems to be quite defensive on their method to chamber, and I'm in the same boat. I think each needs to try different methods, and adapt the method that produces the best end result for the equipment they have. Not everyone has the same lathe, and equipment. I still want to make a steady bearing fixture for those times through the headstock won't work.

[MBTcustom]

I don't mean to defend anything except accuracy, and I'll apologize right now if I offended anyone. I don't argue that the methods being taught and accepted by the mainstream shooting community work, but sometimes it seems more like superstition than science.
I recently watched a video that cost a friend of mine a pretty penny, and I was shocked at what the smith was teaching. Angie can tell you, I was on the edge of my seat yelling at the TV "NoOOOoooooOOOOooo you fool!" LOL!
I told her look what this guy is doing to this barrel! He's smooshing it! I told her "I'll bet he's not smart enough to put his indicator back in the barrel after he threaded that. I guarantee you it changed!" Well, as it happened, he did put the range rod back in the barrel and calmly explained that "the barrel changes after every operation" He calmly torqued the snot out of it again, and drilled the chamber. I told Angie "look! He did it again!!!"
again, he checked it and it had changed again. This was on video. That somebody paid good money for.

[Willbird]

I recently had a barrel in to chamber and then cut off short and install a brake. Why these military types like and 20" barrels is beyond me. Anyway, this is from one of the top makers. He wanted me to turn the brake to the profile of the barrel, make it look like the barrel. Well, you have to use the bore to install a brake, and the OD was running out so much, I told him I wouldn't profile it. I would have had to cut back into the barrel and somehow try and blend it in. I just left the brake big, made a taper transition.

I'm not sure a maker checks the bore straightness as part of their normal QC. I have noticed that in the past 10 years or so, it seems barrels are drilled much straighter than they used to be. This is by eyeball, once set up through the headstock.

Another point to make, just for grins, I indicate both ends true, even though there is always some runout in the bore. I change barrels often I suppose, and don't want one barrel shooting into next week from one to another. However, there are those that use the drilled "drift" to advantage. One well known and renowned smith, uses the range rods and will move the muzzle end of the barrel wherever it needs to be, to get the first several inches of the breech end in alignment of the bore. then, once threaded, he will "clock"the barrel so it points up. He does most of his work for the 1000 and 600 yard shooters, and that elevation works for them.

I think Brownells used to sell brass bore rods, that you would drop down a barrel, and if hung up, it was drilled too far out. Maybe that was to check for it being bent, don't remember.

Anyway, I've had no intention to criticize here, just ask questions. Everyone seems to be quite defensive on their method to chamber, and I'm in the same boat. I think each needs to try different methods, and adapt the method that produces the best end result for the equipment they have. Not everyone has the same lathe, and equipment. I still want to make a steady bearing fixture for those times through the headstock won't work.

I know a lot of folks just fit the brake, then readjust so the OD of the barrel runs true, and then turn the brake.

And Goodsteeel about guys that do not really know much making videos and writing books, that Krankhausen guy wrote a book on how the 1911 works, cept he got it WRONG. People swear by his books, but why would I buy a book written by a guy who does not even understand how the gun works ?? .

Bill

[Willbird]

I have done tons and tons of Pain in the behind setups over the years, on delicate things, odd shaped things with curves and draft angles all over them, then had to hold close tolerances and good surface finishes.

Fitting and chambering a rifle barrel is a walk in the park compared to that kind of stuff, esp when I work for ME and can take 2 weeks at it if I want/need to .

Bill

[MBTcustom]

I have done tons and tons of Pain in the behind setups over the years, on delicate things, odd shaped things with curves and draft angles all over them, then had to hold close tolerances and good surface finishes.

Fitting and chambering a rifle barrel is a walk in the park compared to that kind of stuff, esp when I work for ME and can take 2 weeks at it if I want/need to .

Bill

Well there is that.....
LOL!