.38 Special In The Utah Mountains...Trail Gun??

[Southern Shooter]

A Utah friend of mine called to ask about using a .38 Special with a 4" barrel as a trail gun and a defensive gun in the mountains of his home state. He has 158 grain, cast SWC and SJSP flat point, +P ammuntion that are showing 890 FPS muzzle velocity on the boxes. I recommended getting a .357 Magnum or a larger caliber. But, he says, for now, money is tight and he likes his old service size S&W Model 10, anyway.

In the South, where I am from, a .38 Special would be fine, IMHO. But, what would ya'll say to this person from Utah??

Thanks

[Bo1]

Even down here in the south, we have a few black bears, cougars, and some pretty aggressive hogs...
I would only use a 38 if I had nothing else to carry. I like a 44, or a 45 to carry along with me while out and about in the wild..
Bo

[1Shirt]

Reality often dictates that you go with what you got!
1Shirt!

[Bo1]

Even down here in the south, we have a few black bears, cougars, and some pretty aggressive hogs...
I would only use a 38 if I had nothing else to carry. I like a 44, or a 45 to carry along with me while out and about in the wild..
Bo

[MT Gianni]

It worked wonderfully 80+ years ago. If he is committed to using that I would advise him to try to find some heavy bullet loads, 170gr and up but that's just me. Utah varies in terrain and wildlife considerably from 40 ft pines to 6 foot sage. The reality is that he should have to use it rarely.

[Larry Gibson]

The 38 SPL will work fine as a trail gun. His most probable use in "self defense" will be against 2 legged predators anyway.

Larry Gibson

[Southern Shooter]

I am guessing, at close range, he could at least get "some" penetration with these bullets. I would think hollow-points would NOT be a good idea?

[Outpost75]

Attachment 75844

The 38 SPL will work fine as a trail gun. His most probable use in "self defense" will be against 2 legged predators anyway. Larry Gibson

I agree. I carried a sturdy .38 Special revolver with +P loads as my "trail gun" for over 40 years and never felt under gunned. I started with a 4" Colt Official Police, then went to a Ruger Police Service Six in the early 1980s. I had that revolver serviced at the factory about 10 years ago when they still had parts to tweak it and it is still my EDC.

While some worry about bears, etc. The best bear protection is understanding bear behavior and avoiding the confrontation in the first place. While I no longer live in bear country, my old schoolmates, and friends of many years, Dave and Tom, both are engineers who live and work in interior Alaska. Collectively they have considerable experience and agree that if it gets to the point where you must shoot the bear, you have already screwed up big time, and any handgun you can carry is marginal.

A short-barreled .44 Magnum revolver only compares in energy to a .44-40 rifle. In that case you would be better off carrying an El Tigre .44-40 carbine which shoots faster and carries more rounds.

There was a reason why the US Military armed aviators with .38 revolvers instead of .45s. WW2 and Korean war experience proved that if a downed aircrewman had a .45 he would be ten times more likely to use it if confronted by an enemy. Call it "John Wayne Syndrome". Give the guy a .38 revolver, especially a snubby, he'll use the gun AS INTENDED for evasion, only for immediate threats at near contact range, to create a window for escape, "shoot and scoot." That's how we trained to stay alive.

With bears as well as enemies actively searching for you with the intent that you be captured or killed, "John Wayne Syndrome" is the surest way to come home in a body bag.

[quilbilly]

To Outpost75 - Well said. I agree heartily unless you intend to eat that grouse (or snowshoe hare if you are high enough) that tries to commit suicide in front of you. Two legged predators are the primary problem. Keeping your eyes open to your surrounding out to 40 yards will take care of 99% of any wildlife threats.

[jhalcott]

I agree Outpost also. A grizzly or even a Black bear will KNOW you are in the area LONG before you'll know he's around. IF he hasn't run away from you, he probably wont run fron the .38! On the other hand a 38 that is comfortable may be better than a bigger though UN comfortable gun ! You HAVE to hit them to stop them. 2 legged critters will normally run at the first sign of a gun!

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=jhalcott;2299022]I agree Outpost also. A grizzly or even a Black bear will KNOW you are in the area LONG before you'll know he's around.

Do you really think so?

I have PERSONALLY walked up on both blacks and barren-ground griz who had NO IDEA I was anywhere in the vicinity. On occasion, I had to break a branch or make other noise to alert them, since I was usually working, not bear hunting. These critters were almost always within EASY pistol-shot, but my approaches were generally from downwind.

A .38 is a pretty neat trail gun, but I always carried a .44 Magnum in the Far North.... I can TRUST the heavy .44 cast bullet to penetrate and break bones, even on bear-sized creatures. It will also "suffice" for any other requirements that may arise. It's simply a much more versatile instrument. Here in Nevada, at least our part of it, the largest predator is the mountain lion. I'd be very comfy with one of my .357s as a trail gun....and even the .38 with a HEAVY HANDLOAD would likely serve the purpose.

[quilbilly]

Hi Bruce, Hope all is well with you - 95% of the time they are well aware of your presence before you get there but I too have walked up on both black bears and cougars without them having a clue I was there until I started to calmly talk to them. In each case the animal seemed embarrassed and acted nonchalant as they made tracks for the next county. Of course, I was "locked-and-loaded" on each occasion. Never been to grizzly country though and doubt I would do the same thing.

[waksupi]

I've also walked up on bears at very close range without them knowing it. I travel slow and quiet though.

[Stick_man]

I can agree with virtually everything said already on this thread. Which half of "southern Utah" is your friend going to be in? The eastern half has a lot more black bears than the western half and all of southern Utah has a fair number of cougars and smaller predators. A .38 spl would not be my first choice for a trail gun unless it was my only choice of centerfire calibers, but would be more than adequate in 99% of all situations encountered on the trail.

[Cosmiceyes]

Watching the catch an release of animals on the National Geographic channel or some such.I saw a 5-600 pound bear get captured,moved,and released.He made a mad dash out turned around,and charged the office with the rope at the camera side of the cage.The officer drops rope,pulls gun,shoots,and kills bear. Gun was a 6 inch 357 Magnum. Stainless S&W from what I saw. Bear had massive head damage from the blood flowing on the ground.
Deceased author Bob Milick was spring black bear hunting for meat at the cave where the bear had den for the winter.He had some cast loads for his .357 mag,and as the bear stucked his head out of the den he shot it in the top of the head from above.The bear kept coming so he shot twice more from about 5 foot away.His friend Steve pulled out his pistol,and shot into the head from Bob's right.The bear dropped.I don't remember the caliber or the gun.When the peeled the hide back all of Bob's boolits were spread out on top of the skull. Steve's boolits went straight through into the rocks.Steve had used a j-boolit.Bob's cast his with too soft of a lead mix.This bear weighed 350-400 pounds.
In Alaska I was waiting for a bear to come out in the spring time from the cave I knew he was in.I wanted the meat.I knew he weighed 700 plus when he went in.He had become a nuisance Bear,and the federal Game Warden was with me. I could see the cave with a spotting scope from my home.I had seen him out twice eating skunk cabbage on the dirt shelf in front of the cave.This third day I was waiting down wind east of the cave.I took the TC Contender in 30 Herritt across my snow machine cocked the hammer.He looked towards me,then back towards the Warden who was downhill in front of him. I squeezed the trigger from about 30 yards away.The bear dropped.I place the130 grain boolit so it broke his spine at the base of his head.He weighed in at 530 pounds.
What you have here are three stories where the Bear died.The first is unexpected,but officer practiced an prepared for such a event.He lived.He knew his gun,and load. The second is a prepared hunt where a famous author/hunter could have gotten killed.He knew his gun,but not his load.The third hunt was discussed,I practiced with the gun,and was well prepared for all events.The Warden had a 12 gauge shotgun with 3 slugs,and the rest triple odd buck.He was fifty yards in front.My second firearm was a 375 H&H magnum with four shots.I knew the gun I killed deer with would do the bear.
Moral a gun is just a gun unless you know it,and the load.Then it is protection.

[warboar_21]

I have lived and hunted in both Northern and Southern Utah. I have also done a lot of back packing in both areas. I have seen several bear, Mt lion, badger, and other predators. Only carried a Ruger MKII when out hiking as it was the lightest gun I had. There was only one time where we were ever bothered by a bear and it was due to us cooking. It didn't really cause to much trouble once we chased it off but we slept very light that night.

As a kid my next door neighbor used to take me out with him on his trap line and all he ever carried was a Ruger Single Six with 22mags.

If I were still living up in UT and all I had was the Model 10 S&W I would carry it. When funds came available I would consider something different. I would think a good cast of 158gr at +P velocity would stop cougar but I would be a little leery using it up against a bear. Maybe buy a can of bear spray to supplement the .38Spcl.

Today my carry gun of choice when I am out hiking is my 10mm since the biggest thing I have to worry about is 2 legged vermin and possibly a mt lion. It is what I used while working up on the Olympic Peninsula in WA when out hiking and I saw several bear out there running around.

[NVScouter]

Reality often dictates that you go with what you got!
1Shirt!

Exactly. Plus +P 38s in 4-6" barrels are pretty decent. A good solid cast lead projectile would be plenty for small bears, cougars, and people.

The 38 only really loses as a carry gun in the 1.5-2" barrel length. Its been my experience that they dont have enough burn time to have any expansion with bullets over 125g. The best I got was 6" penitration with a 2" barrel and +P+ and 125 RN. The 158s JHP made about 4" with zero expansion. A 4" barrel doubles the burn time and makes around 20% more and moves the 38 into usable range.

[MT Gianni]

Watching the catch an release of animals on the National Geographic channel or some such.I saw a 5-600 pound bear get captured,moved,and released.He made a mad dash out turned around,and charged the office with the rope at the camera side of the cage.The officer drops rope,pulls gun,shoots,and kills bear. Gun was a 6 inch 357 Magnum. Stainless S&W from what I saw. Bear had massive head damage from the blood flowing on the ground.

Well documented case in MT of moving the bear and the bear was closer to 350 lbs. I do not recall if it was a brown colored black bear or a grizzly.


Deceased author Bob Milick was spring black bear hunting for meat at the cave where the bear had den for the winter.He had some cast loads for his .357 mag,and as the bear stucked his head out of the den he shot it in the top of the head from above.The bear kept coming so he shot twice more from about 5 foot away.His friend Steve pulled out his pistol,and shot into the head from Bob's right.The bear dropped.I don't remember the caliber or the gun.When the peeled the hide back all of Bob's boolits were spread out on top of the skull. Steve's boolits went straight through into the rocks.Steve had used a j-boolit.Bob's cast his with too soft of a lead mix.This bear weighed 350-400 pounds.

Bob Milek was using lead swedged bullets at the time, not cast and not harder than pure pb.

In Alaska I was waiting for a bear to come out in the spring time from the cave I knew he was in.I wanted the meat.I knew he weighed 700 plus when he went in.He had become a nuisance Bear,and the federal Game Warden was with me. I could see the cave with a spotting scope from my home.I had seen him out twice eating skunk cabbage on the dirt shelf in front of the cave.This third day I was waiting down wind east of the cave.I took the TC Contender in 30 Herritt across my snow machine cocked the hammer.He looked towards me,then back towards the Warden who was downhill in front of him. I squeezed the trigger from about 30 yards away.The bear dropped.I place the130 grain boolit so it broke his spine at the base of his head.He weighed in at 530 pounds.
What you have here are three stories where the Bear died.The first is unexpected,but officer practiced an prepared for such a event.He lived.He knew his gun,and load. The second is a prepared hunt where a famous author/hunter could have gotten killed.He knew his gun,but not his load.The third hunt was discussed,I practiced with the gun,and was well prepared for all events.The Warden had a 12 gauge shotgun with 3 slugs,and the rest triple odd buck.He was fifty yards in front.My second firearm was a 375 H&H magnum with four shots.I knew the gun I killed deer with would do the bear.


Moral a gun is just a gun unless you know it,and the load.Then it is protection.

This would make a great signature line for any of us.

comments added between quotes.

[badbob454]

think of a derringer up close and personal , i would save 2 shots for a close in neck or spine shot or right down the throat!, i used to carry a 38 special this was an amazing pistol bench rested approx 2''50 yard groups , i once shot a golfball 5 times in a row from 50- 100 yards , missed the 125 yard shot .. ,When i carry the first shot was snakeshot , followed by fmj hp in 158 gr or thereabouts . if my gun was made for it ,plus p ammo ,... first shot was for cottonmouth , and other nasty snake critters ,or a warning for larger animals ,(noise) or sting them from a distance,..
the following 2-3 were for stopping a serious threat , (charge ) and save 2 for up close and personal. but a 38 can be much better than many other guns , i use either a 9 makarov , or my 454 casull depending upon bear activity in the woods im going in ...

[dverna]

I am looking at something different now that I live in bear country. I used to carry a Kahr 9mm for two legged varmints but am looking at a .40 S&W Glock as a constant carry sidearm. I have a gun mount in the Polaris Ranger and am thinking of a 12 ga pump with slugs and buckshot or a .30/30