Subsonic 44 Mag for hunting deer and hog?

[jhalcott]

Personally I think the friend is making a big mistake going into the "rough" for these hogs with a handgun(or rifle) that he can not handle well enough. It puts YOU and him into unneccessary danger. I KNOW the loads in the original post WILL do the job. The bullet MUST be put into the CNS though. In heavy brush and adrenaline up in BOTH the target and shooter, this becomes a problem. One day at a local range, a guy stoodup ,fired a shot. Then quickly sat the rifle on the bench and grabbed a bag of shot. He ran 50 yards to the parking lot and back to his gun, picked it up and repeated the process. He did this for 5 shots then rested. I asked him WHAT was that all about. He explained he was going to Florida for a hunt and wanted to be ready. He'd been "practicing" for two weeks and had 2 months to go. His target was an 8" ShootNSee with 5 holes in it in side of five inches. 50 yards, no scope!

[303Guy]

He can handle a rifle well enough. It's just that he wants light recoil. I should try getting him to try that trick - him and me both (and the youngster).

[Smoke4320]

"One day at a local range, a guy stoodup ,fired a shot. Then quickly sat the rifle on the bench and grabbed a bag of shot. He ran 50 yards to the parking lot and back to his gun, picked it up and repeated the process. He did this for 5 shots then rested. I asked him WHAT was that all about. He explained he was going to Florida for a hunt and wanted to be ready. He'd been "practicing" for two weeks and had 2 months to go. His target was an 8" ShootNSee with 5 holes in it in side of five inches. 50 yards, no scope! "

Next time tell him to take a tape recording of Bloomburg talking about gun control to the range.. no running needed

[rosst]

http://www.tmtpages.com/twistrate.htm

give this twist calclator a go, its a bueat - as you change the speed/weight the twist changes, much better than a straight chart

how about 2 loads - one for plinking/small game using lighter boolits zipping along and another heavy thumper for serious work, say 300 jacketed HP so its easy to tell which is which - if he's worried about some cranky boar he's upset wanting to get upclose and personal with him full power is the only safe option. trying to get one load to do everything always ends up doing none of them well . . . my 2c

and the gun he's using ?
is he stalking or using dogs ?

cheers

[longbow]

I was looking to 1:16" or 1:20" ~ Shilen makes both. I think there are a few options in 1:20".

Not sure why .44 cal. barrels are so limited in selection but so they seem to be. .444 Marlin with a fast twist would be good with heavy boolits. It seems that .45 cal barrels offer much more versatility in twist rates though.

Well, I just looked at Douglas Barrels and they offer .44 in 1:14", 1:16" and 1:36" so there's another option. For subsonic with that 400 gr. boolit 1:14" or 1:16" should do it.

Longbow

[rosst]

there should be a warning about reading some of these threads - just bought a .457 RCBS 405grn. FP mold - as soon as i borrow/buy some sizers to bring the bullet down to .454 in stages for my LC and test fire . .. . i will get back to you and tell you if i see any advantage ove the 300s at sub speed . . . should be interesting.

[303Guy]

I'll check with him what that rifle of his is and the twist rate.

I checked out that link. Just one problem with it - the velocity/stability is given as being linear. That's not correct. It makes no allowance for the highly unstable transonic zone. Stability to twist rate is almost constant above the transonic zone and below the transonic zone but is not the same. It's to do with the increase in destabilizing effects of air flow over the boolit as the velocity increases. I've found graphs of stability to twist rate but can't seem to find them again. It's different for each bullet profile, making the whole affair rather complicated.

This is how complicated.


That term CMa is the tipping moment caused by airflow which has to be measured (or calculated with some clever science). It's that tipping moment which increases with velocity and that's what makes simple spin formulae not work. In short, bullet stability does not increase with velocity as much as one might expect. With some bullet designs, the stability actually decreases a bit as the velocity increases!

[303Guy]

Right, the rifle is a Rossi Puma in stainless. I see that some say it has a 1 in 30 twist.

[Whiterabbit]

there should be a warning about reading some of these threads - just bought a .457 RCBS 405grn. FP mold - as soon as i borrow/buy some sizers to bring the bullet down to .454 in stages for my LC and test fire . .. . i will get back to you and tell you if i see any advantage ove the 300s at sub speed . . . should be interesting.

You'll need exactly 1. in .454. I size bullets from .457 to .460 all the time to .4525. If cast from soft lead or lazy lead (scrap), I can go from 458+ to .452 in one go. If the bullet is .460 or cast from WW metal I need to size to .454 first, then down to .452.

I have no sizers larger than .454. These are the lee push throughs. I suspect a lyman 45 couldn't handle that kind of reduction.

[rosst]

interesting 303Guy your thoughts on the twist calculator, i treat it as a freebee and in conjunction with others i can get a rough idea . . . like to see the ones you spoke of

limited research i've done agrees with everything you have said Whiterabbit . . . hopefully they can handle the reduction and still have useable accuracy to 50 yards, 70 would be better, that covers alot of my hunting needs if i chose to use it.
mostly its the penetration that interests me, how much more will there be over my 300 & 340 boolits . . . then i will probably onsale the mold, a small lesson learned.

[Artful]

Looks like Rossi Catalog shows 1:30 - NOT 1:20 - best to check the barrel to be sure. - and they use same twist for 38/357, 44, 45, 454 in their lever action carbines.
http://www.rossiusa.com/pdf/2012_rossi_catalog.pdf

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Rosst,

Research can be well and good, but in my experience research never fully tells me if my ideas will work or not. i'm not doing anything revolutionary, I suspect those that try or do what I do simply keep quiet about it. In other words, "research" is usally inconclusive for me and I just have to try it and see.

I have somewhere around 1000+ rounds down my .452 gun using .457-.460 bullets in weights from 425 grains to 740. They are cast anywhere from highly controlled alloys to range scrap and even reclaimed soft fishing sinkers. Lubed with alox to some blue hard stuff that someone else used when they were so nice as to send me samples. They all get shot. The "research" never told me what would reduce, what wouldn't reduce, what lubes work, what alloys dont, etc.

You are shooting 50 yards? I can get get target grade accuracy (for a hunting gun) at 50 yards using lazy lead, paraffin lube (cheap lazy and too soft), and a 425 grain TUMBLE LUBE .460 bullet. There is not much lube groove left after size reduction even for tumble lubing much less wax lube. I'm a terrible pistolero but on an average day I can hold 3 of 5 on a 10x12" plate at 100 yards offhand. Good enough for the piggies. Especially at 70 yards and less.

I'm not saying your bar is set low but I strongly believe you will be able to easily achieve your goal. Assuming you have a nice tight twist or can shoot it fast enough. In my gun, it's a 16 inch twist and a 4 digit speed (units of fps).

[rosst]

cheers Whiterabbit, i hear what your saying . ...

yes, to the research part, i agree it has its limits, luckily for me your information has given me a optimistic start in the right direction at the right time

bar set to low, true . . . there is a a couple of reaons for that. if i had planned this project things would be different but because the mold came up on our version of ebay at a very good price and i bought on impulse, i have what i consider a less than ideal design to work with. the lube grooves are thin and i imagine easily damaged/wiped off in the reduction, that does'nt inspire confidence . . . its all unknown.
the other part is the load if i decide to take it hunting must fit in with the way i have my trapper sighted in for my ' go to ' load, 230grn LEE TC BB at 1250fps.
the 230 is very accurate, with a 5'' as my imposed kill zone, its sighted in to be 2.5'' high at 50 yards, dead on at 75, 2.5'' low at 100, 2moa or better is doable if the gods are smiling. the 300s, 1100fps are dead on at 50 yards and 2.5'' low at 75 . .. will the 405s trajectory fit my other loads
the limit on range is the sights i use, if i would use a mildot ( seriously considering ) i could easily push the range out to 250 yards as i do with my suppressed .3o8 with mk4 leupold on top - thats my end game for the .45s at the moment, if it turns out not to be possable thats fine to, i have learnt some and having a whole lot of enjoyment going thru the process . ..

R.

[jhalcott]

HMMM, CMA was used extensively in the mill I worked in. It usually meant COVER MY A$%! I do practice with a "softer" load than what I hunt with. Being unable to RUN anymore, I practice as often as possible at a private range where I can set up SURPRISE targets. They are prepared by a friend and can popup at about any time at any angle to my front. The targets were made by a guy from the Naval Academy, JUST an electronic base that holds a replaceable target. The bases can be moved by one person and operated remotely. I can just sit in the truck and shoot out the window! Maybe I ain't "running and gunning" but I am still gunning!

[Ramjet-SS]

If you insist on the lower loads I would suggest a cast HP from the Lyman devestator mold. That bullet at 1000 FPS with a soft alloy should be pretty dran effective within 50 yards.

[DCM]

For penatration I would go with a heavier boolit, not so much for the softer alloy or hollow point.
Expansion slows the boolit and your penetration may become insufficient.
IMO a heavy FP would be best for deep penetraation.
YMMV

[ironhead7544]

As someone else suggested, a light load for practice and a heavier one for hunting. Wont fire that many shots at game. Probably wont notice the recoil in the field.

I use a max charge of Trail boss and a generic 200 gr RNFP in an identical rifle. Goes 1100 fps. I would suggest a BTB WFNGC 250 gr at about 1500 FPS for hunting.

[rosst]

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-3_Twist.htm

this is my first port of call when lookin for a twist chart - has both max length and weight, plus Greenhill formula.
with .30 cal and 1-10 twist max weight they say is 250grns, at sub speed i get accuracy with 210grn Lyman but with a wobble, tested out to 325 yards.
it says 313grn max with .429 with a 1-30 twist, i would assume ( not always a good idea ) 300grn is marginal at sub speed in the Rossi.

had the chance to fire a 16'' SS Rossi LA the other day with 240grn factory ammo, i was expecting something like a kick - what a pleasant little rifle to shoot. maybe your friend could look at a .357mag with the option of dropping down to the .38 specials

cheers

[Blammer]

go with the NOE 300gr HP. HP will shed and then you'll have LOTS of lead to continue penetrating.

[Blammer]

or the Lyman 429640 would be my next suggestion.