Subsonic 44 Mag for hunting deer and hog?

[303Guy]

My buddy wants to use his 44 mag for hunting. I chrono'd his load and measured 1050 fps with a 240gr boolit. My experience with a 240gr boolit at higher velocity than that showed a dismal result. Penetration in a pig was not great and the wound showed no bruising and the pig only got agitated and tried to get up - is had had both back legs smashed by a shotgun. One test does not prove anything, I know but I wouldn't go hunting pigs or deer with that load.

I'm trying to persuade him to go for 300gr boolits at the same velocity and with a softer alloy - one that will expand some or with a load closer to 1800 fps.

What say you all?

[rosst]

used 250/260grn. SWC .45 boolits at sub speeds on goats n deer, some of them were solid animals, usually thru n thru with chest shots inside 100 yards.
you dont need expansion, penetration is better, more reliable.
recently changed to 300 & 340grn accurate mold LFN, little better performance but not dramatic, i just like heavy boolits.
your mate will be fine if he pays attention to boolit placement, take the heart/ lungs out and animals fall over in short time . .. my 2c

[Outpost75]

I have found the 270-gr. wide flat-nosed LBT bullets effective in the .44 Magnum as long as you drive them at least 1000 fps. to get adequate penetration. A charge of 7.8 grains of Bullseye gives 1050 fps in my 5-1/2" Ruger, is controllable double-action for rapid repeat shots, and can be loaded with softer alloy down to 10 BHN to enable some expansion.
At subsonic velocities gaschecks are not needed, and any scrap alloy which casts well will work, so this is very economical. Power level approximates the .45 Colt, which is well proven. The same load gives 1225 fps in my Marlin carbine and shoots accurately from the Microgroove barrel, whereas full-up magnum loads with lead bullets do not.

[DougGuy]

Why does he want to take one of the finest ever handgun hunting calibers and neuter the balls right out of it? At that rate he begs the pig to get up and walk away. Hogs are tough. He doesn't need an expanding boolit at all, he needs to drive a heavy wide flat nosed projectile as hard as he can drive it to take hogs.

Shooting a hog with basically a warmed over .44 Special is cruel and inhumane.

This is what I'm talking about: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2282809

[runfiverun]

I think you are right about the one pig not being enough testing,
a 240-250 at 1050 fps is a bit more than a standard 45 colt load.
I think part of the problem is the velocity is right on the edge of supersonic
if he could bump it another 50 fps it would benefit him.

[Artful]

Never shot a pig - Deer I have shot - 44 mag from a Pistol will take a deer no problem - as far as penetration - faster doesn't make for better penetration in all cases - but I agree a heavier boolit would be my choice provided his twist will support it. If he wants to keep subsonic he needs to keep in mind that you can increase mass to increase energy delivery keeping the same velocity.

Is his rifle suppressed? If Not I wouldn't worry about sub-sonic. If it is, then he wants a quiet gun to allow for multiple shots / animals taken and I can see that if trying to eliminate pests/surplus population in your area.

Some comparison video
44 mag Speer 240gr Gold Dot impacting ballistic gelatin - supersonic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXhCHhFFIFc

45 colt - subsonic (really slow in fact 658 fps)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ViPtnDnOk

Notice even though really slow it has no problem penetrating but doesn't make a very large temporal cavity while doing so. So essentially with subsonic loads with a very stable boolit it's like driving an icepick into an animal - you must select the correct place to insert the boolit to do any good - a shot to the guts or lungs = not much effect immediately and a slow death due to infection without follow up shots. You must pick CNS (central neverous system aka brain,neck,spine) or Heart shot to have a quicker kill.

[longbow]

If you are looking for subsonic, you might consider a .44 cal. version of this:

Poop! One day I will get inline graphics sorted out. Anyway, its attached.

This is a Dr. Richard Gunn design for .45 cal. I copied it and scaled it down to .44 with teh thought of moving the crimp groove back and making a .44 "Whisper". haven't got the toy money now though.

It would require a long throat but should be a great subsonic boolit. If you want a 3D model and dimensions, I can supply them.

Longbow

[1Shirt]

Keep us posted on what his results are either way!
1Shirt!

[303Guy]

Thanks folks. He's loading with Trail Boss to full capacity and says he doesn't want a shoulder thumping load. I fired the gun and he's right, the load he's using really is pleasant and the 12 year old can handle it just fine. The velocity of 1050 fps is the same as used by subsonic 22rf's. It's fully below the transonic zone so accuracy is optimum. He can't go higher with Trail Boss anyway but I'd like to see a heavier boolit load at 1050 fps with a slower powder. He doesn't know yet that the heavier boolit with slower powder will give less felt recoil but more muzzle lift.

The gun is not suppressed but is still rather quite with Trail Boss. Of course, slower powder will be louder. and when fired in the bush - which is where he wants to take it - will be louder still.

DougGuy, he wants a lightweight and mild recoiling gun for the bush - our bush is pretty dense jungle and is hilly and often very muddy. I see his point. I do agree that more power is better for quick kills but it seems the subsonic heavy would be quite fine. I agree with folks who say penetration is better than expansion. My experience was a once of and the boolit was fired into the neck transversely so had rigid muscle to contend with. No bone.

Thanks all.

[jhalcott]

that pig had it's adrenaline up due to the injuries. It takes a LOT to stop any animal hopped up on adrenaline. Lots of hogs here in the states have been stopped with quite similar loads. IF the bullet did NOT hit the brain or spine the hog will show some fight for a few,to many seconds. EVEN a heart shot won't instantly drop it. I've SEEN deer that were hit by big trucks make it 100 yards into the woods. A few even had solid hits from high powered guns fail to stop them with one shot. I saw one deer that had been run over by a semi truck. Both back legs were broke and it was practically gutted, but STILL took 2 shots to the heart area and one in the head to put it down.

[DougGuy]

DougGuy, he wants a lightweight and mild recoiling gun for the bush - our bush is pretty dense jungle and is hilly and often very muddy. I see his point. I do agree that more power is better for quick kills but it seems the subsonic heavy would be quite fine. I agree with folks who say penetration is better than expansion. My experience was a once of and the boolit was fired into the neck transversely so had rigid muscle to contend with. No bone.

Thanks all.

I understand. If you were only talking about deer or antelope or other thin skinned game, subsonic would be great. There are some very experienced pig hunters on this forum that know a whole lot more about the killing of hogs than I do, and I read a lot of their stories and load data. None of them that I have seen, would recommend that load for hogs. They are just tough animals because of their gristle plate and it takes a lot of bullet energy to penetrate enough to put them down. All head and neck shots? No problem. Vital heart/lung shots with that load? I wouldn't bet on it.

There is a lot of truth in "for every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction" and this is particularly true with firearms of any caliber. To sufficiently dispense enough energy out of the muzzle to drive a boolit hard enough to penetrate the hog's vitals, there is but to deal with the recoil because there is no way to lighten it without giving up the velocity needed to kill the animal.

[Artful]

If you are looking for subsonic, you might consider a .44 cal. version of this:

Poop! One day I will get inline graphics sorted out. Anyway, its attached.

This is a Dr. Richard Gunn design for .45 cal. I copied it and scaled it down to .44 with teh thought of moving the crimp groove back and making a .44 "Whisper". haven't got the toy money now though.

It would require a long throat but should be a great subsonic boolit. If you want a 3D model and dimensions, I can supply them.

Longbow

Looks similar to Accurate offerings




http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=8

[Fenring]

Why does he want to take one of the finest ever handgun hunting calibers and neuter the balls right out of it? At that rate he begs the pig to get up and walk away. Hogs are tough. He doesn't need an expanding boolit at all, he needs to drive a heavy wide flat nosed projectile as hard as he can drive it to take hogs.

Shooting a hog with basically a warmed over .44 Special is cruel and inhumane.

This is what I'm talking about: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2282809

What he said. If it was easy to poke neat holes in pig vitals all the time I could use my .17hmr. But it's not so I like heavy bullets going as fast as I can get them, preferably with some expansion.

[longbow]

That Dr. Richard Gunn design is 480 grs. in .45 and the caption says it is for .45 LC!?! If so then it must about fill the cartridge with the crimp groove so far forward.

When I scaled it to .44 it came out at 400 grs. I figured it would be ideal for .444 Marlin subsonic as is since the lead would displace cartridge volume which is good for light loaded rounds and there is no throat to speak of so little sticking out of the brass should fit fine. For .44 mag. I figured I would move the crimp groove back some and make a long throat. Haven't got to it yet but hope to one day.

That heavy boolit should be good for subsonic loads and pack some momentum with it for penetration. As for use on hogs I am no expert there but the load should approximate several of the old BP .40 to .45 cal. mid size cartridge loads so I would think it should be adequate and certainly better than subsonic 240 gr. boolit.

Longbow

[303Guy]

I like the idea of 400gr. What twist would it require?

I don't trust 'well placed shots' on a pig in the bush. It's true that they are sometimes found in open patches and present their sides for a clear shot but they can also be found facing us and can come at us if wounded. That's not a good time to have inadequate penetration and stopping power (whatever that might mean). 400gr at 1050 fps sounds like a good option.

[Artful]

To calculate twist required go here.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

but you'll need to know a few things besides the velocity, and caliber.

Factory rifle with fastest twist I know of is Marlin 20:1 - lots of other companies use 38:1 a much slower twist.

[Driver man]

New Zealand bush. My boundary landscape. Track leads to great year round hunting .

[NLS1]

Great thread everyone. Keep the info going!

Dan

[GabbyM]

Couple ways to reduce recoil.
What I do in revolver is to use a lighter boolit and keep velocity up. A 200 grain boolit at 1400 fps should do just fine.
Cast from an alloy harder than 14 BHN or 1,400 fps divided by 100 = BHN for expansion. Penetration will be very good with a non expanding boolit.

Rifles will shoot the short bullets better than a revolver because they lack cylinder gap. I like the Lyman #429215 with gas check in my revolver. In a rifle they will shoot high velocity since they've the gas check. Much less recoil than a 240 or 255 grain boolit. But they feed great in some lever guns then hang up on the front band in others. You also only need a gas check in the rifles with full power loads.

I have the Saeco 200 grain rnfp. Wicked looking boolit when loaded with it's .305" meplat. But the base band is thin and a bit of a chore to get filled out. IMHO the #420 Saeco 200 grain truncated cone would be an easier to cast and better rifle boolit. At 1250 fps you've matched the old 44-40 black powder ballistics.

[onesonek]

that pig had it's adrenaline up due to the injuries. It takes a LOT to stop any animal hopped up on adrenaline. Lots of hogs here in the states have been stopped with quite similar loads. IF the bullet did NOT hit the brain or spine the hog will show some fight for a few,to many seconds. EVEN a heart shot won't instantly drop it. I've SEEN deer that were hit by big trucks make it 100 yards into the woods. A few even had solid hits from high powered guns fail to stop them with one shot. I saw one deer that had been run over by a semi truck. Both back legs were broke and it was practically gutted, but STILL took 2 shots to the heart area and one in the head to put it down.

I concure. That adrenaline does some amazing things.