58 brass remmy

[bigted]

don't mean to bounce all over the map but its my poor brains fault...

I have a nice pieta brass frame 58 remmy revolver. it is nice and smooth and pretty accurate in my old hands.

question I have is this ... the cylinder holds easily 40 grains of powder under a ball and is pretty stout in firing... so I have always wondered why there is the warning on the cartridge conversion to 45 colt that "NO BRASS FRAME REVOLVER" warning. I also load 40 grains in my colt revolver and also my ruger vaquero and they are stout as well but the thing that makes me wonder is the fact that I CAN load 40 grains in my remmy cylinder and so if the BRASS frame withstands this recoil/psi thrust then why not the conversion except for the option of using higher power smokeless loads? ...[which is definitely not the sound thinking with these old style revolvers]... I am tempted to try it as bp is bp and I don't see the diff between a 40 grain load behind a ball in a case ... and the same 40 grain charge behind the same ball in my brass framed remmy... which has a steel cylinder.

thoughts???

what gives here?

[44Vaquero]

Friction is the difference, a round ball vs. a conventional bullet, bearing surface is much greater and pressures will be higher as will recoil and stress placed upon the frame. Brass being softer, the frame will shoot loose or possibly even fail!

It's best not to tempt fate! Just accept what the powers that be have said in this case and move on. I have 2 1858's with Kirst Konversions in .45 ACP and love them!

[bob208]

some of what he said i right. but it is the safety factor of the steel . with the conversion it is only the brass is only one hot round away from comming apart. not saying you would do it. but a factory load or a handload for a ruger.

now i have no problem with brass frame and lose b-p and ball loads even the max loads. but you start pushing balls made of w-w or smokeless powder. all bets are off.

[bigted]

yes I agree a bit with both opinions. I shoot the ball in it now at pure lead and .452 inch and also shoot the same ball in my 45 colt so I don't see the problem... however as you point out ...1 miss hap would probably be very expensive in hide and equipment.... and maybe a life.

while I would be comfortable with the brass frame and the conversion ... I cant see the future and know where this spiffy revolver will be after im taking my dirt nap so better be safe for whom ever gets their grubby mits on it later ... hate to be wonderin round in the happy hunting ground and run into a soul that got taken before his time with my stupids.

better safe then sorry is rite on tha money ... thanks for being sensible while my hectic brain continues its stupids ... been lookin for the off button for years ... the wife would be thrilled if I can ever find that...LOL ...

[bob208]

not a stupid question.

stupid would have been to do it. then some ruger loads. then come complain about the gun comming apart.

stupid i have seen was a real 58 remington with the top strap blowed off and the cylinder split from loading with lose smokeless powder.

[mooman76]

Heavy loads in a brass framed revolver will eventually work it loose. Better to stick with lighter loads. I bought a 36 cal from a guy because I thought I could fix it. I asked him how much he loaded it with. he said he didn't know. He usually just filled it up.

[Hellgate]

Big Ted,
Look at the recoil shield and see if you can see the imprint of the back of the cylinder. After a while there will be an indentation from the cylinder smacking into the recoil shield under recoil. Eventually the cylinder gap will open up since the cylinder can now move farther back (into the indentation) when fired. The R&D cylinder will do the same thing. It is not so much a situation of the frame actually stretching as it is the cylinder pounding its imprint into the frame and developing an excessive cylinder gap. It takes a while longer for that to happen in a brass Remington than it does on a brass Colt where the recoil ring is fairly narrow.

[John Taylor]

I have never cared much for the brass frame cap and ball revolvers. The Remington will most likely hold up better than the Colt models because of the way the rear of the cylinder is supported. I have a brass framed Colt model that shot loose and have seen several others. The cylinder will set back into the frame and make for lots of cylinder/barrel gap. I suggested using loads as light as 10 grains in brass frame pistols and got laughed at but it does work for putting hols in paper. Put the powder charge in and fill the chamber with corn meal, no problem killing cardboard or paper at 25 yards and very little chance of hurting a brass frame like the one below.

[bob208]

by looking at that picture that gun had other problems. you can tell by the hits on the edges of the openings for the nipples. looks a little like one where they put a .22 case of smokeless under the black powder to make it brun cleaner.

i have made this offer before. i will buy the pistol the nay sayers buy the powder and caps. i will shoot a brass frame gun till it is no longer safe. then we will see how long it takes for it to shoot lose if it ever does. i offer this so we know that there will no chainfires no smokeless. no dubble ball loads. no balls stuck in the barrel. no balles cast from wheel weights.

[dondiego]

bob208 - What? I can't figure out your offer. You will buy a pistol but the naysayers have to buy your powder and caps?.... What?

[Sergeant Earthworm]

i have made this offer before. i will buy the pistol the nay sayers buy the powder and caps. i will shoot a brass frame gun till it is no longer safe. then we will see how long it takes for it to shoot lose if it ever does. i offer this so we know that there will no chainfires no smokeless. no dubble ball loads. no balls stuck in the barrel. no balles cast from wheel weights.

Interesting thought. Everybody I know warns against loading brass frame guns too hot, and many I know warn against buying a brass frame gun to begin with. In spite of all that, I have seen few excessively loose brass frame guns, but have seen some loose steel frame guns as well. Wouldn't surprise me if loose guns are just plain poorly cared for no matter the loads used in them.

I avoid hot loads mainly for three reasons: 1. Hot loads are generally no more accurate than milder loads and many times less accurate, 2. Hot loads use up powder faster, and 3. Most anything shot with either a hot or mild load probably won't notice much difference between the two.

[rodwha]

"Hot loads are generally no more accurate than milder loads and many times less accurate"

I've tried loads in my Old Army with a RB ranging from 25-45 grns, and I found that I'm just no pistolero. My groups don't change enough to notice much.

"Most anything shot with either a hot or mild load probably won't notice much difference between the two."

Would a 20 grn charge behind a RB give a passthrough on a deer? I don't know and haven't tried, but I'd guess the accurate load wouldn't be sufficient for hunting medium game, and it seems the accurate load is typically around 16-28 grns. Even 28 grns seems a bit light unless a heavier bullet were used. But I can't speak from experience.

[bob208]

yes they can buy the powder and caps. i will buy the pistol and cast the balls. it will be an experinment. just to see how long a brass frame will last. then we could do the same thing with a steel frame just to compare.
i have heard alot of people say the brass shoots loose this as a chance to prove it. i can save some on the powder. i can pick it up at the store in loose 25 lb. bags.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

I've tried loads in my Old Army with a RB ranging from 25-45 grns, and I found that I'm just no pistolero. My groups don't change enough to notice much.

Would a 20 grn charge behind a RB give a passthrough on a deer? I don't know and haven't tried, but I'd guess the accurate load wouldn't be sufficient for hunting medium game, and it seems the accurate load is typically around 16-28 grns. Even 28 grns seems a bit light unless a heavier bullet were used. But I can't speak from experience.

Some guns are very particular about the load used, some aren't. My 1858 doesn't seem to care much either.

I seriously doubt that a RB on top of 20 grains fffg would pass through a deer. In Colorado it would be illegal to even try it, as a handgun projectile must produce 550 ft/lbs of energy @ 50 yards to be legal for hunting big game. The hottest load I use in my revolver is 30 grains fffg which yields about 960 fps and around 200 ft/lbs of energy. In my view, even if it were legal it would be unethical to hunt with something that underpowered. Could it be done successfully? Sure, and probably has.

[rodwha]

I'm a bit curious as to whether or not you have experience to say otherwise? Don't take me wrong, as I have no dog in this fight, but I am leery of a brass framed pistol because it's what I read all too often.

I like the Spiller & Burr, and have wondered if being a .36 cal, with likely less pressure, that it would last my lifetime using near full charges of powder without damage.

[rodwha]

Here in Texas I cannot use my pistol during muzzleloader season as it's a cap n ball, but I can during regular season.

I use (so far) 3F Triple 7 in mine, and with only 33 grns (mine takes 45 with a ball) it's in the neighborhood of 1062 fps and 371 ft/lbs. That's likely good enough for a complete passthrough on an average deer out to 25 yds I'd guess, judging by what I've seen of typical rifle loads out at 100 yds (.50 cal) and doing so.

But where I generally have hunted the deer are quite small (75-125 lbs).

[John Taylor]

The last old army that I had liked full loads of 2F. Have not seen any steel frame Remington that shot loose but have seen some with flame cutting on the frame and cylinder pin Not enough to hurt anything, but enough to hook a finger nail on. The picture of the brass frame Colt model shows how narrow the area is that takes the recoil of the cylinder. The Remingtons have more area and may not shoot loose as fast

[dtknowles]

I had a friend with a Colt style brass framed 44 that was loose. Can't tell you how it got that way as it was like that when he got it. I put a shim between the frame and the barrel and the gun shot fine. It might have been ok without the shim who knows but it was loose. I have a brass framed 36 that I have shot with 25 gr of 3fg and a 130 gr conical and it is still tight but I don't think I have shot 100 rounds with that load. If I was shooting it for self defense or at a deer or coyote I think I would go with the conical over the round ball.

Tim

[mooman76]

My 36 was loose but tightened right up after a couple shots.

[Battis]

The recoil shield of my brass framed Spiller & Burr .36. I bought it this way.