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Thread: simple Hi-Tek coating

  1. #1461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremlin460 View Post
    Violet-2X and Red 1220L

    These I should mix @ 5-1-7 using acetone.
    Preheat 200, cook 11 mins, toss out to cool and recoat..
    is it 2-3 coats then cook or cook between each coat?
    since these are only 9mm pistol I may only coat twice. depending on outcome.
    Cook them for each coat. Twice works fine for small pistol loads.

  2. #1462
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    Grem.
    remember.. first coat has to be very thin. If you think it looks right, then it is too much.
    The Violet R-2X is very nice. The 1220/L No.1 is also a nice purple.
    I actually mixed some of this last night to coat some 45 pills.

    Coat.
    wait.
    pre-heat.
    bake.
    cool.
    Wipe.
    Smash.
    If wipe and smash OK.
    coat.
    wait
    bake.
    wipe.
    Smash.
    size.
    shoot.
    smile.
    repeat.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  3. #1463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danderdude View Post
    Heat treating is a MAJOR part of bullet casting. There are only two ways to control hardness: heat treating and uniform alloying. With tin and antimony each 10X more expensive than lead per pound, heat treating is the low-cost option. By freezing the transitional crystalline matrix of a 96-3-1 alloy at 440F the alloy becomes MUCH harder than it is at 200-420F, and it stays that way. Curing Hi-Tek means you simultaneously anneal the bullets to the softest they can possibly be.

    Now I asked a very simple question several times in this thread, to jeering responses. The first time you deign yourself to speak to a lowly young caster like myself is only after I've found your Achilles' heel.

    This complication with Hi-Tek is a inherent serious, undeniable and unavoidable design flaw with the product. It will only work with a more expensive, less dense alloy.
    I'm more shocked that you're not more forthcoming than anything else.

    Testing, testing, testing...
    Why is the end-user the one who all the testing left up to? Isn't the manufacturer supposed to be as involved, if not more so, than we lowly peons?

    Here are the problems Hi-Tek solves:
    1. No direct lead exposure while handling ammo.
    2. It gives a tumble lube coat that isn't sticky.
    3. It makes some pretty boolits.

    Everything else is done as well or better by other products, at lower cost, with more versatility.

    Heat treating an inexpensive alloy so it can be used in a high pressure load isn't practical?
    Reply to your above matters.
    Quote
    " freezing the transitional crystalline matrix of a 96-3-1 alloy at 440F, the alloy becomes MUCH harder than it is at 420F, and it stays that way."
    Reply
    I find your above details very confusing. How can you freeze alloy at 440F 0r 420F, and keep it at such hardness at 420 to 440F???

    Quote
    "Curing Hi-Tek means you simultaneously anneal the bullets to the softest they can possibly be."
    Reply. As you had indicated, and may be I am wrong, you did say that you were not prepared to spend your money, on coatings.
    Therefore, I am wondering, that if you had not tested the coating process to gauge any annealing taking place, how can you make sweeping statements of what the coating & alloy will or will not do when coating is heat cured?
    As you have apparently not purchased nor used the coating, and, you have not provided any data, how is it that you can draw any conclusions as to what actually happens with hardness of the alloy during cure cycle ?
    If you had in fact done tests to substantiate your assertions, you would have posted results to prove your statements.
    In fact, you are relying on "others", to spend their money, and do all the work, and then supply it to you free of charge, just for the sake of you asking.

    Quote
    " I asked a very simple question several times in this thread"
    Reply, As advised previously, the coating is no more than a physical barrier that survives the shooting process.
    It has nothing to do with your attempts to use the coating in a fashion that the coating was not designed to do.
    If you would have done some testing on ability or non-ability of coating, you may have been able to post your findings when you allege, that coating process is interfering with hardness designs you are seeking.
    Without you being able to supply irrefutable test data to support your stance, then why do you continue to try and discredit the coating when you cannot supply hard data to back up your allegations?

    Quote
    "I've found your Achilles' heel."
    Reply I find your such statement offensive and underhanded.
    If you had not done any work to support any of your claims. What the hell are you talking about with your above statement?????
    You have no idea what the coating will or will not do.

    Quote
    "This complication with Hi-Tek is a inherent serious, undeniable and unavoidable design flaw with the product.[/I][/B] It will only work with a more expensive, less dense alloy. "

    Reply. You cannot be more wrong.
    Plain Lead, blends, and various standard alloys have been used in all sorts of guns at various speeds, and people have no problems if coating is applied correctly.
    It is very apparent, that you have totally ignored all users previous postings, but it does not stop you rambling on, with unsupported allegations.

    Quote
    "Testing, testing, testing... "
    Reply. As you have not appeared to have done any testing, what are you talking about????
    You are the one, who is trying to "lean on" and almost demand from other shooters, to spend their money, do the work, (and then to provide you proof), by supplying you data that you had not done yourself.
    How cheap is that????

    Quote
    "Here are the problems Hi-Tek solves:
    1. No direct lead exposure while handling ammo.
    2. It gives a tumble lube coat that isn't sticky.
    3. It makes some pretty boolits."
    Reply. You are very uninformed, and, as you had not obviously read the data on the coatings, and, as you apparently had not used the coatings, because you did not want to spend your money, you have no real understanding nor idea, of total benefits when using the various coatings.

    Quote
    "Everything else is done as well or better by other products, at lower cost, with more versatility".
    Reply. How can you make such a statement??? Have you done a costs analysis to be able to demonstrate and substantiate your claim????

    Quote. "Here are the problems Hi-Tek solves:"
    1. No direct lead exposure while handling ammo.
    2. It gives a tumble lube coat that isn't sticky.
    3. It makes some pretty boolits.
    Reply
    Just in case you missed all the data that is available and has been available for some 20 years or more, the following are some of the benefits of using the Hi-Tek coating.
    1. Minimises Atomised Lead emission and significantly reduces metal to metal contact,
    2. Low smoke,
    3. Self lubricates,
    4. Does not melt or become sticky at elevated temperatures even at Lead melting temperatures.
    5. Allows severe deformation, and severe sizing, without coating coming off the alloy, and without damaging the alloy.
    6. Leaves no deposit inside barrels
    7. Does not leave messy smelly lubricants or Lead alloy fragments on machinery especially when sizing and ammo manufacture and does not melt like waxes and other lubes.
    8. NATA certified, that demonstrates, (no other lubricant or coating is certified with this aspect), that coating actually reduces atomised Lead to meet US and Australian health regulations when used on ammunition..
    9. Reflects heat to protect alloy from damage with use of high energy powder loads.
    10. Cost per coated item is very low.
    11. Does not stain hands or equipment.
    12. Capable to allow production at a very high production rate.
    13. Cured coating reflects heat away from alloys and protects them from being damaged when using high energy loads, especially in conditions when the barrel gets very hot.
    One of the members described how he uses the coated projectiles in high speed rapid fire conditions, and uses wet rag to keep his Barrel cool.
    In such use conditions, the coating still performs well.
    14. In many application, it allow user not to use Gas Check.
    15. Can be used on Copper Jacketed ammo to reduce or prevent Copper fouling.
    16. Reduces requirements for user to not have to buy many cleaners, some of which actually damages the Barrels.
    17. Reduces labour time to clean guns after use.
    18. Very tough coating.
    19. Greatly increased accuracy.

    These are just a few benefits, and is just a little more, than what you allege above.

    Quote. "3. It makes some pretty boolits."
    Reply. Yes I agree, but you do not understand reasons why many components are used.
    Not only are they pretty, but have an engineering benefit for using them.
    Again, as you do not use, nor understand the properties of the coating, you making cynical comments, only places you in a bad light with others who are using the products very successfully.

    And, as you have said, you have nor purchased the product, it is still unclear why you are simply badmouthing the product.

    As I requested previously, (a request that was totally ignored), you should fess up, and disclose reason why you now are behaving in such a manner, especially when you really do not know the product at all.
    What is in it for YOU??????

  4. #1464
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    Sir, your wanton display of willful ignorance is embarrassing. Please, PLEASE, for the betterment of yourself and your customers, get educated on the crystallography of lead alloys and the physics of tempering and annealing.

    Here are some resources you can get started with.
    http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal...ls_engineering
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treatment

    Your coating fails at about 410F. Far before that point, the lead is already annealed.
    To heat treat a 3% antimony alloy requires quenching at 430-450, depending on what hardness you want.
    Instead of wheel weights at 60 cents a pound, to make a rifle bullet now requires the far more rare $2/lb linotype to achieve proper hardness.

    While you're doing that, let me take the opportunity to educate everybody else about the interesting chemical reactions going on in polymerization.

  5. #1465
    Love Life
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    Get out of here danderdude.

    Go back and read the whole thread. Leadman and Popper have already stated the issue with losing hardness, and have tested the ability to heat treat lino to retain hardness.

    If buying lino is going to break your bank roll, then you need to re-examine your financial standing and decisions.

    As we have pointed you to the tests that have already been done, free of charge to you BTW, and you fail to read them it is time for you to move along. You are adding nothing NEW or PRODUCTIVE here. It has been covered. Free of charge to you BTW.

    To summarize:
    Your concerns have already been noted in this thread
    Further experimentation has already been done on how to keep hardness
    All free of charge to you...
    Experimentation is in the works for a harder coating
    Stop doo dooing the thread while the experiment works itself through...free of charge to you.


    You feel as if you have latched onto something important here. As if you are some sort of leader, and expelling the darkness for those who may follow you.

    You are not. You are rehashing last week's news.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
    Last edited by Love Life; 10-11-2013 at 12:29 PM.

  6. #1466
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    Completely agree. You have been even handed in all the threads are are not a hater. Level-headed and you go for it. It would be nice, not implying you, if the same respect was shown in the other threads. Too often noses are poked into the other threads not furthering the O/P intent or respecting the thread. Again, this is not directed at you Lovelife.

  7. #1467
    Love Life
    Guest
    Exactly.

    I was curious about HI-TEK, so I ponied up my own money and time so that I could see what all the jazz was about. Now I know it is awesome stuff.

    I was curious about the TES powder coating method so I ponied up my money and time to see what all the jazz was about. It works and is also awesome.

    I just prefer the HI-TEK method as I have found it is easier to work with and accomplishes my goals once I stopped being a bone head and followed the instructions.

    I have a WTB ad posted for some of the copper enriched alloy so that I can continue my rifle experiments and see where that goes.

  8. #1468
    Boolit Buddy
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    Love life, I always love to read your NO BS approach and replies.
    You are always on the money.

    Dunderdude, since you are so good with formulas and "Numbers" lets see if you can solve this one:
    Facts (for sake of argument).
    cost of lead (PB) is $1/LB
    Cost of Tin (SN) is $10/LB
    Cost of antimony (SB) is $6/LB

    Question: When mixing 1LB of Lead with 2%of antimony and 3% of TIn, what is the cost of 1LB alloyed Lead? What is the cost increase per bullet cast assuming you have 50 bullets per alloyed LB

    If you can answer the above that's great, if the cost difference is "breaking your bank" then stop shooting or find a job.

  9. #1469
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    my lead and brass are free, hell ,, ive even got friends ive met on different forums sending me lyman #2 lead. Other guy at ft bragg give me some great lead and some times i make him a few 380's. My friend at coke plant brought me 129 lbs of great lead and gave it to me he found at estate sale. I hand pick at my friends big truck tire store, yea for free.

    42$ of hitek-supercoat stain does 12 thousand bullets. I just buy powder and primers and i just load pistol only. You can find free lead if you want to. Twoalphabullets.com will sell ya 1000 un-lubed/unsized bullets for 55 bucks$..

    Buy gotta go shoot somemore, off today and mondays a paid holiday. Goat stew tonite, hehehe, i wish! Over rice.

    Just got my twin fan system working again, the one in attic up by the shingles quit, so now both are working. You see the one hanging over pot from home depot.

  10. #1470
    Boolit Master
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    Dander dude.
    Mate. I don't get what your probem is.
    If the hi-tek coating does not do what you want, then don't bloody use it!

    Jesus... nobody is forcing you to..
    go lube or PC or epoxy or Klass Kote etc etc etc.

    Wear a hat when you go outside or the sun will fry your brain
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  11. #1471
    Boolit Master Gremlin460's Avatar
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    Is it ok to coat some at night and bake next day?, I am asking in case there is a time limit from coat to actual oven time... read back a few pages and it hasent been mentioned
    Don't worry about life, no-one gets out alive.

  12. #1472
    Boolit Master
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    coat tonight and bake next week if you like. Makes no difference.
    Just keep them clean. don't let any dust or dirt get on them before baking.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  13. #1473
    Boolit Master Gremlin460's Avatar
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    ok , will mix some up now at 5-1-7 , sort 250 piles up, and add enough mix just to get em damp not coloured
    Don't worry about life, no-one gets out alive.

  14. #1474
    Boolit Master
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    You will find that those colours you have will make the bullets very bright pink/purple. even with only a tiny bit. it covers really good.
    So, if after 2 coats it looks a bit light, just throw another coat on them.
    A bit of practice with it and you will be cheering.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  15. #1475
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    Since I don't know what oven you are using, I'd suggest checking that the temp is actually 200Deg C first.
    If you bake for 10 minutes and the bullet fails the wipe test, Increase the time to 12 minutes.
    Or increase the temp to 210 if you oven is graduated to that for 10 minutes.
    If you stuff it up, you can remelt and cast again...

    I have had a bullet free day. Processing the photos of the Daughter's wedding last weekend and making DVDs for all the family.
    Hooroo.
    Regards, Trevor.
    Australia

  16. #1476
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    Just got my oven for coating. Hamilton Beach 31100 at Menards. Good thing I waited a few weeks, it was on sale today for 39.49, regular price is 79.00. I like a good sale.

    Now to order some coating.

  17. #1477
    Love Life
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    I just loaded another 500 rds of 45 acp. It was so clean. On the downside I am out of bullseye and will be moving to red dot. Years back in my "Have to try every powder" phase I ended up with about 10 lbs of different powders (10 different powders) that all do the same thing in 45 acp. So as I finish one pound, I work up loads again with the next pound/brand of powder.

    I only have 5 more pounds left and then I can break into my kegs of unique.

  18. #1478
    Boolit Master Gremlin460's Avatar
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    oven is a Westinghouse freestyle, with timer, fan forced and graduated scale to 250c, been playing with the thermometer so much darn battery went flat.. time for a bunnings run
    Don't worry about life, no-one gets out alive.

  19. #1479
    Boolit Master Gremlin460's Avatar
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    well the red went copper... pictures soon...
    2000 boolits took, 50ish mls in two coats
    Don't worry about life, no-one gets out alive.

  20. #1480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremlin460 View Post
    well the red went copper... pictures soon...
    2000 boolits took, 50ish mls in two coats
    Looking forward to photos.
    usage is about right for quantity, but from previous tests, may be, you could have used a little less per 1000, but it really depends on finish required.
    What mix did you do, and what temperature did you bake and for how long?
    How much metal per cook?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check