simple Hi-Tek coating

[slide]

Good deal, as long as it can be put to use!

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, your post 12842 above is what I meant when I said Hi-Tek being such a contradicting product to measure BHN on but you explain it much better. Slide don't give up now, regardless of what, if any, use it will be to casters it would be nice to know. I believe the idea Joe has put forward about a tile may well be the way to go. I have done some Google time and have not found a BHN for 4H pencil yet I did find several conflicting articles on the use of pencils, as it would seem that all pencils are not created equal, in regard to hardness and the number they carry. I found one article that stated 2H was 28BHN and each consecutive number was some 1 to 1.3/4 higher than the previous number. I guess you can see that any result you get will only be conclusive with that brand of pencil it would seem. I still think that the very nature of Hi-Tek will make it difficult to measure BHN and even if one does get a good result, I feel that the way Hi-tek reacts to pressure stress and heat may well put it in its own class in regard to BHN as we see it. I for one hope you don't give up just yet as I think Joe's idea may well be as close as we will get, till he comes up with another idea. I should mention one article showed the pencil having a flat blunt end and was being used as a chisel to mark the material, which may be the way to go with Hi-tek. Don't be discouraged your in territory that no other has ventured into. Sounds a bit like an episode of Star Trek. Regards Stephen

[Ausglock]

it's gotta be hard. All my bullets make a ceramic "chink" sound post baking...

[slide]

Okay Joe, I made a mistake. That bullet with what I thought was lead under the furrow was graphite. It was one of the first I did and I did not want to report success if there wasn't. I have been playing around with the pencils yesterday afternoon,last night, and this morning. I can say with confidence that my findings are correct. If the pencil is softer than the coating it will just mark on it like you were drawing on a piece of paper. If the pencil is harder than the coating it will leave a tiny scratch it. I had a lady friend over last night and had her fish out some ingots without me knowing what they are. They were different bhn's. Verifying with my hardness tester I was 100%. It is noon here and I am about to start your suggestion. I didn't have any tile. The hardware store wouldn't sell me just one even though I saw some loose ones. I do have some blank panels. My buddy that owns a powder coating business gave them to me. It is what they use to test powder coats. You probably know what I am talking about. They measure 2"x 3 1/2 ". I don't know the bhn on them but you can't scratch them with the 4H pencil. Stand by! sitrep coming!

[slide]

Report #2. Put a little candy apple red powder on a blank panel. Spread it out and leveled as best I could. The thickness of the blank panel was 0.04,the thickness of the coating was around 0.12. Baked the panel for 20 minutes with temp around 390F. There was still some brittleness like we saw on the first try. Pencils tips dug in and didn't slide like on a coated bullet. So, I loaded up my pencils,some coated bullets and whatever else I thought I might need and headed to IFS coatings which is just a few miles away. Was able to see the quaility control guy. Explained and showed him what we were trying to do. He watched me do a test with the pencils and them showed me under some high powered microscope that I hadn't removed all of the coating. He said they use the pencils sometimes and consider it a viable test. I am going to still guess that the bhn of hi-tek is 30 to 40 bhn. The only problem is he told me that he wouldn't be able to help me anymore since I was not an account holder or even using their product. I understand. He has a job to do and messing with some bullet caster-coater ain't part of it. He has been awful nice. Don't want him to get in trouble.

[Tazza]

It was nice of him to give you his time to help out, even though you were not a customer and was polite to tell you he can't help in future and not simply telling you to bugger off when you popped your nose in That still shows good customer service

[HI-TEK]

Report #2. Put a little candy apple red powder on a blank panel. Spread it out and leveled as best I could. The thickness of the blank panel was 0.04,the thickness of the coating was around 0.12. Baked the panel for 20 minutes with temp around 390F. There was still some brittleness like we saw on the first try. Pencils tips dug in and didn't slide like on a coated bullet. So, I loaded up my pencils,some coated bullets and whatever else I thought I might need and headed to IFS coatings which is just a few miles away. Was able to see the quaility control guy. Explained and showed him what we were trying to do. He watched me do a test with the pencils and them showed me under some high powered microscope that I hadn't removed all of the coating. He said they use the pencils sometimes and consider it a viable test. I am going to still guess that the bhn of hi-tek is 30 to 40 bhn. The only problem is he told me that he wouldn't be able to help me anymore since I was not an account holder or even using their product. I understand. He has a job to do and messing with some bullet caster-coater ain't part of it. He has been awful nice. Don't want him to get in trouble.

Slide,
You certainly gave it a go. Thank you much for your efforts.
Knowing the various polymer systems around, and my Hi-Tek, and, I can, with some certainty say, that there is no other stuff around that compares.
My suggestion was that Hi-Tek was about 35-40 BHN and results are directly dependent on how the stuff is treated.

[slide]

You are welcome Joe! If I can help in any other way let me know. I wish you could have seen this microscope. Amazing. You ask me what that pencil gizmo was. It is called a portable pencil coating hardness tester. It comes in a kit with weights,pencils, and some other stuff. About a $100.00 US on ebay.

[HI-TEK]

You are welcome Joe! If I can help in any other way let me know. I wish you could have seen this microscope. Amazing. You ask me what that pencil gizmo was. It is called a portable pencil coating hardness tester. It comes in a kit with weights,pencils, and some other stuff. About a $100.00 US on ebay.

HI Slide,
I have two microscopes one is for magnifying up to 5000 times, with various light sources to enhance from the top, what I am looking at, and the other is one that actually has lights below and shines through a film, so I can look through a film.
Portable pencil hardness tester are basic equipment and is just above a manual Pencil hardness testing, as the machine can improve reproducibility over manual system
Shore Hardness tester are much more accurate and more expensive.
I am glad that the tech guy was able to spend time with you. But if you think about things, he is a Powder coating guru, and will protect that business.
I thought, that he may have been curious enough to do some tests with his machine whilst he had a chance. I know I would have..... but that is me.....

[Petander]

These 4 BHN pure lead bullets were recovered from a pine tree trunk.

Fired from a 38 Special @ 800 fps, a 4 BHN alloy is too soft but Hi Tek coating is still protecting pretty good. I have fired dozens of these 1000+ fps in a 357 snubby and cleaning wasn't a big deal at all. Soft lead will deform some of course.

[Stephen Cohen]

Petander, it would be interesting to know if the Hi-Tek coating retarded expansion to any degree, as the picture shows the coating certainly has remained in place. I would imagine a naked pure lead bullet at that velocity would lead barrel badly, not so with Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Just wanted to show what happens with extra long over baked coating. This is typical with colour change, but coating seems to work Just fine

[HI-TEK]

Petander, it would be interesting to know if the Hi-Tek coating retarded expansion to any degree, as the picture shows the coating certainly has remained in place. I would imagine a naked pure lead bullet at that velocity would lead barrel badly, not so with Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen

Stephen
If you consider the expansion/deformation of alloys, the final effect is that the metal is pushed very hard against the bore, which is then becomes sealed. HI-TEK simply "moves" with Lead expansion, and is a separation layer/film between bore and Lead. Result is, if coatings are done correctly, that even softer alloys should work. The effectiveness of using soft Lead greatly is dependent on correct sizing.
Sizing has to be done, so there is a tight initial fit in the bore, so that possibility of gas cutting is minimised before final expansion of Lead that results in tightly sealing the bore.
Then, being separated from bore with the Hi-Tek film, the coated soft Lead obtaining maximum and uniform conformity with shape, for best aerodynamics and performance, then simply travels without leaving deposits.
When that soft cast leaves the bore, there is no more expansion or deformation taking place, and the projectile should hit its mark as required.
As I have suggested many times previously, the Hi-Tek is not a cure for wrongly prepared casts. It has to be remembered, that the coating is a bonded dry film lubricant, not Jacketing.

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, I agree with all you say, I just would have expected a bit more expansion from pure lead at that velocity. I realise that the range they were shot at and the hardness of the tree would also impact on results. I have a feeling that Hi-Tek does hold a cast bullet together to some degree at impact, a couple years back I was shooting steel with my brothers 460SW and it seemed the Hi-Tek coated cast actually gave a much better knock down than just plain Lube cast. I did not have a large supply of the plain Lube cast to test my theory at the time as it was an accuracy test between the plain and Hi-Tek cast. It is a test I will take up again when I get back up north where he is. I have a Young lad using some of my 320gr Hi-Tek coated cast in his 460SW for Sillywets and he swears by there knock down power, mind the 460SW is a power house in any loading. I understand when a cast comes in contact with steel a great deal of heat is generated which also has an impact on the splatter we get, perhaps the Hi-Tek coating slows the heat transfer to the lead alloy long enough to allow the bullet more impact on target. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Joe, I agree with all you say, I just would have expected a bit more expansion from pure lead at that velocity. I realise that the range they were shot at and the hardness of the tree would also impact on results. I have a feeling that Hi-Tek does hold a cast bullet together to some degree at impact, a couple years back I was shooting steel with my brothers 460SW and it seemed the Hi-Tek coated cast actually gave a much better knock down than just plain Lube cast. I did not have a large supply of the plain Lube cast to test my theory at the time as it was an accuracy test between the plain and Hi-Tek cast. It is a test I will take up again when I get back up north where he is. I have a Young lad using some of my 320gr Hi-Tek coated cast in his 460SW for Sillywets and he swears by there knock down power, mind the 460SW is a power house in any loading. I understand when a cast comes in contact with steel a great deal of heat is generated which also has an impact on the splatter we get, perhaps the Hi-Tek coating slows the heat transfer to the lead alloy long enough to allow the bullet more impact on target. Regards Stephen

Stephen,
Now that you mention it, with impact and HI-TEK, you may have something that can be observed. Many years ago, when the coating was first introduced, a guy used it for hunting in a rifle ammo. Two things he noticed,
1. He shot into end grain of a hardwood post with greased and coated casts. He noticed that the greased cast left an indentation on end grain and splattered. The coated cast, penetrated into the end grain and was buried in the hardwood.
2. Second thing he noticed, that when shooting wild Pigs, the greased cast did not penetrate near front shoulder bone plate and he had to shoot twice to stop the Pig.
The coated cast, went straight though same area, and the pig just dropped.
At that time, I had no idea about those effects the coating had provided, as main concern was around stopping Lead fouling, getting rid of the greasy smelly lubes, lowering of smoke and increased accuracy and reducing Lead contact/exposure to shooters. Re-loaders also were very happy as loading gear was kept clean.
All the other things that happened after coatings became in demand, were all a learning curve for all users including me, and this learning has continued over the years.
As you know, here rifle ammo is very small in use as compared with handguns.
Also, I had no direct contact with any shooters, as commercial casters were supplied with coatings exclusively. None had never fed back any data from shooters.
Most users of coated cast, did not realise nor were advised as to who manufactured the coatings.
With heat transfer reduction by the coatings, is now clearly identified and demonstrated.

[Petander]

My pine trunk test was completely unscientific and does not represent average expansion. I just picked up some random bullets from the trunk that had become like sawdust.

Here are three 460 grain 458 bullets,fired into a steel bullet trap @ 1700 fps.

[dansedgli]

The wife and child have been away for 2 weeks so I've put together 87kgs of 40 cal projectiles.

Doing trublu 160s for 357 sig next. Looking forward to trying it out.

[Stephen Cohen]

The wife and child have been away for 2 weeks so I've put together 87kgs of 40 cal projectiles.

Doing trublu 160s for 357 sig next. Looking forward to trying it out.

Well done, I hope you remember to clean your dishes, put the toilet seat down and put your dirty clothing in wash basket, you know how women are about those things. Regards Stephen

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, it would seem we have all learned a great deal over the years. I use cast in all calibres above .30 and have to admit I find cast as good or better than Jacketed for all my shooting, in the case of hunting bullets Hi-Tek gives one the ability to use a softer alloy at a good velocity, I prefer softer alloy as I don't like to get overpenetration in most areas I hunt, I like the bullet to expend its energy in the game I hunt. I have to admit that its a 50 50 bet as to getting complete pass through on most game I hunt, given the loads I use. My next project is to build a 300WM with 1/12 twist as I have the barrel and I think it will be cast friendly. I will stand by my belief that Hi-Tek gives us versatility that wax lube did not. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

Joe, it would seem we have all learned a great deal over the years. I use cast in all calibres above .30 and have to admit I find cast as good or better than Jacketed for all my shooting, in the case of hunting bullets Hi-Tek gives one the ability to use a softer alloy at a good velocity, I prefer softer alloy as I don't like to get overpenetration in most areas I hunt, I like the bullet to expend its energy in the game I hunt. I have to admit that its a 50 50 bet as to getting complete pass through on most game I hunt, given the loads I use. My next project is to build a 300WM with 1/12 twist as I have the barrel and I think it will be cast friendly. I will stand by my belief that Hi-Tek gives us versatility that wax lube did not. Regards Stephen

I'll be very interested in how you go with using cast for 300wm, i have mad mates that are using theirs for new comps at our range, cast would surely help cut the costs down. I cast some 230 gr gas checked ones, not sure if they have tested them in their 300wm yet, but they failed to work in the .300 black out, as they couldn't be crimped properly due to being so long and there was no where to crimp them so they would fit the chamber. I'll need to find something around the 170 grain mark, if our research is to be believed.

I see no reason why it wouldn't work, especially if kept sub sonic, yet i have run coated wheel weights in my STI open gun with no leading, they were doing 1,400 fps last time i checked, may need to bump the load up a bit more and re-test it.