simple Hi-Tek coating

[slide]

Joe, if my info is correct powder coat runs around 26-28 bhn, copper jacket runs around 30 bhn. Copper plating is so thin evidently it can't be measured. I did a little more searching on pencils and found out a lot of powder coating companies use them to test powder coat. They have a little gizmo with a wheel on it. It is designed for flat surfaces. Would you know what that thing is called?

[HI-TEK]

Joe, if my info is correct powder coat runs around 26-28 bhn, copper jacket runs around 30 bhn. Copper plating is so thin evidently it can't be measured. I did a little more searching on pencils and found out a lot of powder coating companies use them to test powder coat. They have a little gizmo with a wheel on it. It is designed for flat surfaces. Would you know what that thing is called?

Slide, it would be interesting to learn what they used.
I am thinking it may be a Shore Durometer type D, which was used for plastics and coatings.

[slide]

Joe, found this online,thought you might find this interesting.

Pencil# 6B 4 to 5 bhn

5B 7 to 8 bhn

4B 9 bhn

3B 10 bhn

2B 11 to 12 bhn

B 13 bhn

HB 14 to 15 bhn

F#2 16 to 18 bhn

H 20 to 22 bhn

2H 26 to 28 bhn

I will have a set of pencils in a couple of days, coming off of amazon,will let you know what I think I find out!

[Avenger442]

Back on idea of testing without gas check. I've repeated this story several times so forgive if you have read before. Back several years ago a guy that was reading our post wanted to use Hi Tek in his M1A. He asked me if I had ever tried to shoot Hi Tek .308s without the gas check. At the time I was shooting loads that would have given me guesstimated 2700+ fps. Didn't have a way to check the speed back then. After several checks of speeds with the Lab Radar and Hi Tek they may have been closer to 2800 fps. It does give you a bump up on speed. Anyway, I shot 10 rounds of the Lee C309 160R coated with three coats of Hi Tek 1035 Gold liquid without the gas checks. There was light leading about the last inch of the barrel in the Remington 700. By the way, this bullet coated with Hi Tek has given me the most accurate loads in my rifle at a more sedate speed of around 2600 fps. The lead was about 13 BHN.

Back then I had not learned much about shooting lead. But my conclusion then was that it was unwise to shoot Hi Tek coated without gas checks at speeds that you would not use with other methods of lubrication without the check. Some time after that I thought it might have been the fit of the bullet in the barrel. With a gas check mold the tail of the bullet is smaller without the check. So the tail of that bullet might not obdurate enough to fit the barrel and it may have been gas cutting. But if it was gas cutting wouldn't it have shown up sooner than the end of the barrel?

My thinking now, to do a test gas check vs no gas check and Hi Tek, is that you would have to have two molds just alike except one for gas check and one for bullets without. And a rifle bullet of the smaller calibers .30 caliber and down, .223 would be good. Rifle because you can push it faster and longer time in the barrel. Smaller caliber because there is more stress to the lead on a smaller surface area when the bullet is fired. More stress more heat. My thinking. Which isn't always correct.

Lee doesn't make a rifle bullet mold without gas check, with the exception of a 30 caliber boat tail, until you get to the 375 Winchester. My guess is that they have a good reason for that. Someone could have a custom mold made. Or it might be cheaper to modify a mold to remove the gas check bump.

What's your thinking?

[slide]

I think NOE has or had molds that had both gas check and no gas check molds in the same blocks. I will check and see.

[slide]

Sold out Avenger,I only saw one a 46 grain.

[Avenger442]

Yeah, modifying an aluminum mold is probably the best way. I'm just not sure I could do it without ruining the mold.

[slide]

Where's Ausglock when you need him? I think he has done what you are talking about.

[Avenger442]

I think it's like 6AM over there

[HI-TEK]

Where's Ausglock when you need him? I think he has done what you are talking about.

Slide
Ausglock seems to have reduced his input some, and I noticed his absence more and more.

[Stephen Cohen]

Avenger442, your findings are much the same as mine, I have not done much with cast under .357 and I do find a gas check is not needed on even my 357mag and maximum rifle loads with velocity to 2,400fps in max with 158gr lee. I had a Lyman 156gr mould which I did remove the gas check ring from after finding there was no need for a check for my use, of cause that 156gr mould now drops a nice 172gr cast which also shoots well as a plain base. I have a Lee plain base 240gr plain base in 375 and an RCBS 150gr gas check both shoot well in my 375 Whelen at around 1,800fps, yet I do get a little leading in last couple inches of barrel with the RCBS without gas check, I think the fast 1/12 twist and the powder I used may account for some of that and further testing is needed. The only rifle I do use gas checks in is my 458wm and it just plain shoot better with them like 1 1/4''groups at 100mtres are the largest it has produced. I have a 320gr plain base CBE mould for the 460SW and accuracy is outstanding with no leading at all, I have also removed the gas check ring from an RCBS 230gr .452 RN mould for the 460SW with same results. When I get back to testing 30 calibre I will be using my Omark44 as its accuracy is known. I also coat my rifle cast 3 times and have found as you did that Hi-Tek gives the best from all barrels it is fired in. PS as for removing gas check rings I used a Dremel tool and it is something you don't want to rush. Regards Stephen

[M.A.D]

Slide
Ausglock seems to have reduced his input some, and I noticed his absence more and more.

Probably been training for all the IPSC comps over the last few months...

[Ausglock]

Probably been training for all the IPSC comps over the last few months...

G'day Stranger..

I feel my work (guidance) here is done.
Everyone is coating fine with no issues.
Even Joe has not send any new samples to try. I have just been producing Green Goodness for IPSC'ers in OZ.
M.A.D. Will give you a cooee.
Looking for some mixed range brass if possible..........

[Burnt Fingers]

These pencils go up to 5 to 28 bhn. You have to sharpen them a certain way. We'll give it a go!

There's no reason to sharpen them any specific way. I've done all kinds of points on them. Either they dig into the lead or they don't.

BTW, I think Donnie is keeping all that blue Hi-Tek for himself. I've been waiting for it to show up on the site for sale.

[slide]

Okay Joe, Here is what I think I found out. The set has 12 pencils in it. The hardest is a 4H. Now 2H has a value of 26-28 BHN. 4H is harder than 2H. 2H would draw a line on a bullet. 4H made a perfect little furrow with lead showing underneath. So a 4H pencil is a little harder than the coating. We are going to have to guess what bhn we are at. i found no charts that went up to 4H on the bhn scale. I am going to guess 30 to 40 bhn. I will leave the final word up to you. You know more about this stuff than I do.

[HI-TEK]

Okay Joe, Here is what I think I found out. The set has 12 pencils in it. The hardest is a 4H. Now 2H has a value of 26-28 BHN. 4H is harder than 2H. 2H would draw a line on a bullet. 4H made a perfect little furrow with lead showing underneath. So a 4H pencil is a little harder than the coating. We are going to have to guess what bhn we are at. i found no charts that went up to 4H on the bhn scale. I am going to guess 30 to 40 bhn. I will leave the final word up to you. You know more about this stuff than I do.

Hello Slide,
Just checking, was this test on coating that was on a cast alloy?
If so how many coats?

[slide]

This was a bullet cast with wheelweights plus a little tin. It was two coats of candy apple red.

[HI-TEK]

This was a bullet cast with wheelweights plus a little tin. It was two coats of candy apple red.

Thanks Slide.
I suspect, that what your pencil hardness indicated, is a composite indication of coating and alloy it was coated upon.
We know, that thin coats "move" with smash test. So what my thought is, that when you pressed with the hard Pencil, you in fact indented the alloy, and coating moved and allowed indentation. I suspect that the test results indicated a "composite" hardness result.
To get the coating Pencil hardness of the actual coating, you may have to make a piece of flat baked coating, (or pre-cast coating baked) or on a surface such as Stainless Steel or something that is very hard and wont yield like Lead alloy.
As I had suggested, a level piece of baked coating say 1/4 inch thick, supported on a hard surface, even like a ceramic white tile, and after baking and cooling, you can do your pencil hardness on the actual coating. What ever indentation you achieve, should directly be as a result of the coating hardness, as the supporting base will not allow indentation that will compromise test..
Any thoughts????

[slide]

I see what you are getting at. I think I have some small pieces of stainless,maybe? Are you talking about brushing on the hi-tek? Joe, is this going to benefit anything other than just knowing? I realize it was my idea and question.

[HI-TEK]

I see what you are getting at. Are you talking about brushing on the hi-tek? Joe, is this going to benefit anything other than just knowing? I realize it was my idea and question.

Slide
Thinking about my previous post, a Ceramic White tile would be much better as a base.
It will take the heat, and afterwards you can see the indentations with your pencil.
If you simply spoon on some powder, (teaspoon into a small hill) and roughly level it, during bake it should flow out and form a reasonably level surface and area for testing will be reasonably large to get a clear picture of hardness tests. Depending on your tile size, you can possibly put more powder around in various spots. That way you get multiple test areas.
No one has done hardness test on Hi-Tek previously, and with your question, is another area that has been explored.
If you do get a hardness, that result can be directly compared with all other coatings, jackets etc.
These results can then demonstrate, confirm or reject the so called "equivalency" claims being suggested by other manufacturers using other coating systems.