simple Hi-Tek coating

[Ausglock]

Josh... It's not just the US.
Australia is being run by Vegan anti-everything types.
And the Lefty Media is pumping it out to school kids.
Teachers are feeding kids their own agendas, rather than educating the young minds.
Come the revolution............

[Shotgundrums]

Indeed

[Gatch]

I'm still having no joy with cast and hitek.

Today I tried coww + 2% tin. Water dropped 130gr rn bb coated twice in 6ml of 120ml/20g powder. Baked 11min at 200C. Sized to .358 using a spray of diluted aqualube. 4.0gr of universal. Even seperated out the thicker s&b brass like ausglock mentioned. I'm not sure what else I can do differently.

[HI-TEK]

I'm still having no joy with cast and hitek.

Today I tried coww + 2% tin. Water dropped 130gr rn bb coated twice in 6ml of 120ml/20g powder. Baked 11min at 200C. Sized to .358 using a spray of diluted aqualube. 4.0gr of universal. Even seperated out the thicker s&b brass like ausglock mentioned. I'm not sure what else I can do differently.

Hi Gatch,
Can you please advise what is the failure?
It is not clear with your post, "having no joy with cast & hitek".
Please advise what is happening.

[Gatch]

Hi Gatch,
Can you please advise what is the failure?
It is not clear with your post, "having no joy with cast & hitek".
Please advise what is happening.

Oops I missed a few details eh. I'm still getting leading in my barrel. I know I must be overlooking something. Too many people using it with good results for it to be a product failure.

Would water dropping from the mold have any negative effect on hitek ?

[Tazza]

Have you had issues with other cast?

I'm on brisbane, southside (sheldon). You are welcome to pop in one day and grab a hand full of my hi-tek coated projectiles and give them a go and see if you have the same issues.

You say you're sizing to .358 i wonder if there is an issues of the projectile being a bit too small, and the gas is cutting the hi-tek ?

[HI-TEK]

Oops I missed a few details eh. I'm still getting leading in my barrel. I know I must be overlooking something. Too many people using it with good results for it to be a product failure.

Would water dropping from the mold have any negative effect on hitek ?

Hi Gatch,
the whole thing starts at the beginning.
1. If you are using wheel weights plus Tin, does your mix contain any Zinc? If it does, that will answer all questions. The coating does not like Zinc at all and will peel off.
2. If you are sure of "no Zinc", do you use any casting/release lubes in and or around your Molds?
3. With Water quenching, freshly made cast, what is the purpose of doing this? Have you had any increase in hardness, (if that is the aim).Do you dry the water off the quenched cast? Any possibility of contamination coming from your water quench?
4. If you have Zinc in mix, dropping them into water will cause the Zinc on surface to "React" with the water, causing a dry film, that will interfere with bonding of the coating.
5. The next problem may be, simply using too much first coat, and then not drying enough before baking. How do you test if the first coat is dry or not before baking?
Please look at simple things, one item at a time.

As Tazza suggested, have you slugged your bore to measure internal diameter and then match your bore sizing requirements accordingly.

[Ausglock]

Gatch..
Humour me..
Go and see Katherine at Northern Smelters in North road Woodridge and get a 5Kg ingot of 2,6,92 Bullet metal.
Will cost you about $30.
Cast and coat and shoot those.
If they shoot fine, It is your poxy Alloy being the problem..

[Gatch]

Hi Gatch,
the whole thing starts at the beginning.
1. If you are using wheel weights plus Tin, does your mix contain any Zinc? If it does, that will answer all questions. The coating does not like Zinc at all and will peel off.
2. If you are sure of "no Zinc", do you use any casting/release lubes in and or around your Molds?
3. With Water quenching, freshly made cast, what is the purpose of doing this? Have you had any increase in hardness, (if that is the aim).Do you dry the water off the quenched cast? Any possibility of contamination coming from your water quench?
4. If you have Zinc in mix, dropping them into water will cause the Zinc on surface to "React" with the water, causing a dry film, that will interfere with bonding of the coating.
5. The next problem may be, simply using too much first coat, and then not drying enough before baking. How do you test if the first coat is dry or not before baking?
Please look at simple things, one item at a time.

As Tazza suggested, have you slugged your bore to measure internal diameter and then match your bore sizing requirements accordingly.

1. I'm certain there's no zinc. I have hand seperated out everything that's not a lead clipon weight. Though its not impossible I have missed some.
2. The only lube that goes on my molds is the stuff that comes with mihecs molds. And that's only a drop on all the pins. Nothing goes in the cavities.
3. Water quench is solely for convenience. I hadn't hoped to gain any additional hardness as they probably lose whatever benefit when they're baked.

5. I've never tested the coating before baking. They're dried to the touch with a fan then left on top of the convection oven. They'd be either in moving air or on top of the oven for at least 30minutes before baking.

I've slugged the bore and the biggest grooves are .3574 hence sizing to .358

What is the way to test the coating is properly dried ?

Aside from that I will take Trevs suggestion on board and buy some alloy from northern smelters.

[Gremlin460]

Sent you a msg..

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Gatch;4719754]1. I'm certain there's no zinc.

My reply After casting place some into hydrochloric Acid that is mixed with water at least 1 to 1, (concrete cleaning Acid available in hardware stores) If there is Zinc present the cast will fizz, as Zinc will start to dissolve in the acid.
3. Water quench is solely for convenience. I hadn't hoped to gain any additional hardness as they probably lose whatever benefit when they're baked.
Unless you are sure that you get a benefit, stop water quenching

5. I've never tested the coating before baking. They're dried to the touch with a fan then left on top of the convection oven. They'd be either in moving air or on top of the oven for at least 30minutes before baking.

What is the way to test the coating is properly dried ?
Aeasy, warm air dry coated cast to about 50C for about 1/2 hour. Take a few, bake at 200C, take it out and examine very thoroughly. If surface has fine blisters, (Orange Peel) it was not dry. Keep drying, and after a while repeat test a few only. Then after the test samples pass all tests, only then bake the rest.

[Shotgundrums]

1. I'm certain there's no zinc. I have hand seperated out everything that's not a lead clipon weight. Though its not impossible I have missed some.
2. The only lube that goes on my molds is the stuff that comes with mihecs molds. And that's only a drop on all the pins. Nothing goes in the cavities.
3. Water quench is solely for convenience. I hadn't hoped to gain any additional hardness as they probably lose whatever benefit when they're baked.

5. I've never tested the coating before baking. They're dried to the touch with a fan then left on top of the convection oven. They'd be either in moving air or on top of the oven for at least 30minutes before baking.

I've slugged the bore and the biggest grooves are .3574 hence sizing to .358

What is the way to test the coating is properly dried ?

Aside from that I will take Trevs suggestion on board and buy some alloy from northern smelters.

Bruh, with clip-on wheel weights...eh... you could be right. But, I was chasing my tail with this once. I had bullets pass the smash and wipe test. BUT...they would fail the smash test a week or so down the road. Zinc in your alloy does this weird electrolytic thing, and oxides will push the coating away from the slug.
If this isn’t your situation, softer alloy slugs can swage down in the case and ultimately be undersized, causing gas cutting.
If this isn’t your experience, there could be errors in your barrel. If the barrel is throated too long ( the bullet fully exits the case before sealing in gas path in the bore) you’ll get leading. If there are loose spots in your bore, you’ll get leading thereafter. If the leade of your rifling is steep you’ll get leading. If your bore is rough, you’ll get leading.
These are some of my findings. Good luck.
P.S.
There’s no way to know whether you do or do not have zinc in your alloy without burning a sample in a specialized Spec-A. Get some foundry hardball like Trevor mentioned and go from there. Can’t hurt.

Josh

[Michael J. Spangler]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;4719778]

1. I'm certain there's no zinc.

My reply After casting place some into hydrochloric Acid that is mixed with water at least 1 to 1, (concrete cleaning Acid available in hardware stores) If there is Zinc present the cast will fizz, as Zinc will start to dissolve in the acid.
3. Water quench is solely for convenience. I hadn't hoped to gain any additional hardness as they probably lose whatever benefit when they're baked.
Unless you are sure that you get a benefit, stop water quenching

5. I've never tested the coating before baking. They're dried to the touch with a fan then left on top of the convection oven. They'd be either in moving air or on top of the oven for at least 30minutes before baking.

What is the way to test the coating is properly dried ?
Aeasy, warm air dry coated cast to about 50C for about 1/2 hour. Take a few, bake at 200C, take it out and examine very thoroughly. If surface has fine blisters, (Orange Peel) it was not dry. Keep drying, and after a while repeat test a few only. Then after the test samples pass all tests, only then bake the rest.

Joe how much zinc will cause this issue? Would a couple clip on weights in 100 pounds batch do the trick? Or do you need to have more than that?
I'm kind of careful when I smelt my clip ons, keeping the temp just in the slushy stage, mashing the weights down into the melt constantly so it doesn't get overly hot. I never have issues where zinc ruins the alloy but I wouldn't doubt that a little gets mixed in there.
I just can't bother taking the time to sort through everything.


GATCH. If you're water dropping before coating you don't need to. If there are is zinc present then as Joe said water dropping can cause an issue.
Also the hardness from dropping is lost when you heat the bullets back up to bake the coating.
If I need extra hardness I water drop the coated bullets after baking the last coat. Seems to work great for me in everything from 38 special up to full house 44 mag and 300 blackout.

[glaciers]

[QUOTE=Michael J. Spangler;4719791][QUOTE=HI-TEK;4719778]


Joe how much zinc will cause this issue? Would a couple clip on weights in 100 pounds batch do the trick? Or do you need to have more than that?
I'm kind of careful when I smelt my clip ons, keeping the temp just in the slushy stage, mashing the weights down into the melt constantly so it doesn't get overly hot. I never have issues where zinc ruins the alloy but I wouldn't doubt that a little gets mixed in there.
I just can't bother taking the time to sort through everything.

Michael this is what I do and it sounds about what you are doing. Below is my method, and a question.
It's my understanding that zinc melts at a higher temperature than range scrap and COWW. I melt my COWW as you are doing thinking the zinc WW will not melt or mix. I did have a zinc WW get by my inspection and it did float to the top and did not look like it was going to slump/melt.
I was under the impression that keeping the temp under the melting point of zinc which is 787* would be a check against zinc contamination. I never let my melt for casting or making ingots go over 725*, but try to stay no higher the 700*. I check melt with 2 thermometers which agree with each other.

I sort and then melt at under 725*
Most of my WW are older so I've found some, but very few zinc WW.

So my question is: is there a better way?

[Michael J. Spangler]

I’m guessing sorting is the only “better” way
Too much time and effort for me though.

When possible I like to get scrap roofing lead and alloy in lino and lead shot to make my alloy.

[Gatch]

I'm heading to Northern smelters tonight for some hardball. Hopefully that will help

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=glaciers;4719892][QUOTE=Michael J. Spangler;4719791]

Joe
Question 1. how much zinc will cause this issue?

So my question...2. is: is there a better way?

My answer to Q1 is,
it does not take much Zinc at all to cause problems. The quantity.... is a case of how long is a piece of string.... Despite Zinc not being melted and skimmed off surface of Lead, there will be some Zinc that has dissolved. No problems, if user take appropriate steps.
Simplest is to cast using that alloy mix. Then soak cast in Hydrochloric acid pre-diluted with water, (1 part Acid to 2 parts water). This soak, will dissolve all surface available Zinc from the cast. Then simply wash and dry, then coat as normal.
The Acid treatment will leave a very porous surface which is ideal to coat with Hi-Tek.

My answer to Q2
Another way is to use Copper Sulphate crystals on the melted alloy. The Zinc will be extracted from alloy mix and is replaced by the Copper from the Copper Sulphate. The residue left on top of the melted metal will contain the Zinc as Zinc Sulphate and can be skimmed off easily. The Copper to an extent will be incorporated into the alloy mix, which is not a problem.
You may have to use this treatment a few times, to ensure that you maximise removal of the Zinc, and this treatment will also remove things like Aluminium, and Magnesium as well.
Then simply cast some. Cool and test hardness. If all is OK, then coat with Hi-Tek as normal.

[Gatch]

I think I'll also cast enough for another 5lb batch of the coww+2% and give them a wash in HCl. See how that goes.

Thank you for the help gentlemen.

[Michael J. Spangler]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;4720301][QUOTE=glaciers;4719892]

My answer to Q1 is,
it does not take much Zinc at all to cause problems. The quantity.... is a case of how long is a piece of string.... Despite Zinc not being melted and skimmed off surface of Lead, there will be some Zinc that has dissolved. No problems, if user take appropriate steps.
Simplest is to cast using that alloy mix. Then soak cast in Hydrochloric acid pre-diluted with water, (1 part Acid to 2 parts water). This soak, will dissolve all surface available Zinc from the cast. Then simply wash and dry, then coat as normal.
The Acid treatment will leave a very porous surface which is ideal to coat with Hi-Tek.

My answer to Q2
Another way is to use Copper Sulphate crystals on the melted alloy. The Zinc will be extracted from alloy mix and is replaced by the Copper from the Copper Sulphate. The residue left on top of the melted metal will contain the Zinc as Zinc Sulphate and can be skimmed off easily. The Copper to an extent will be incorporated into the alloy mix, which is not a problem.
You may have to use this treatment a few times, to ensure that you maximise removal of the Zinc, and this treatment will also remove things like Aluminium, and Magnesium as well.
Then simply cast some. Cool and test hardness. If all is OK, then coat with Hi-Tek as normal.

Great info joe!
Thank you!

[Avenger442]

What Joe says about the copper sulfate works. In a long process that was successful in making a tougher bullet, I intentionally contaminated some alloy with zinc and used copper sulfate to remove the zinc and put copper into the alloy. There must be a metal in the alloy for the copper to replace. The bullets coated well and shot as well as any other I had used. You can actually produce a lower BHN alloy that is as tough as nails. But for me that process was too long and frankly didn't produce any better performance, the end zone for me, than I was getting out of my wheel weight alloyed with tin. But if I had an alloy that I suspected of being contaminated with zinc that process is an option. And, unlike acid, it removes zinc from the whole cast bullet.

Copper sulfate is easily obtainable at any hardware store in the form of root killer. Just read the ingredients on the side to make sure. Putting it in the melt should be done a little at a time, probably a teaspoon, and stirred in. There are discussions on this forum on how to do it safely and when you have achieved the removal of zinc.

I've said this before and believe that it applies to most hobby casters. Because of the cost of alloy metal from a foundry, almost twice per pound, I only use wheel weights and scrap soft lead from a scrap yard. I am allowed to sort through the weights at the yard so I buy only lead. Sorting is easy with a big pair of side cutter pliers. If they will not bite into it it goes back in the bin. I have never had any indications of zinc contamination. I have had coating that was applied too thick come off. So I coat real thin. My rifles love this stuff.

But, if I were producing a commercial product I would probably be using foundry lead alloy and rolling the cost into the product. It would be simpler, less time and have additional spread of liability. But as a hobby caster it just doesn't make financial sense if you are careful. And anyone that knows me knows how tight, I prefer thrifty, I am will tell you I lean in the direction of a thrifty on everything. The rest pays my bills.