simple Hi-Tek coating

[HI-TEK]

My oven sure has a fan.

(I did both a French Fries-test and a pizza test before putting boolits in. They came out good. . )

I got those wipe test fails last week,not anymore. Now my only concern is flaking - I also still don't understand how "overcooking" does no harm. If my temp is too high it should not harm? Well instructions say differently.
I will have to look into what was advised on US website

Attachment 219131

It's hard to judge this flaking stuff without actually having proper, professionally coated boolits to compare with.
Attached are smash tests on various colours. There is no flaking

How does this look?

Attachment 219132.

What is the large tear on smashed alloy? Where there is coating, there is no flakes visible.

You know, the leading I got the other day ... I just couldn't load any cast now. It's nerve-wrecking to shoot while thinking about how many hours you will scrub tonight. I will not "try" any anymore.

I only need to get the flaking thing sorted out. If manufacturers are shipping these boolits in bulk, they sure can't flake any, right?

No products should leave factory that fail tests


Please educate me: how much flaking is too much flaking?

Please refer to attached and determine things for your self.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbYOG5xKTr0
Heat reflecting
https://youtu.be/9ru_NYp7Y6c
Over Cooked and smash test results

[HI-TEK]

Wow excellent,thank you very much!

Those bullets in my last pic are jacketed. It's the jacket that's tearing up,coating stays good on the flat bullet. But the other,smashed upright,that is starting to flake.

If I only knew. But I have never handled a coated boolit,that's why I have no idea what a good one is like.

Petander,
A local manufacturer coated Jacketed and Plated alloy with our Old Gold coating.
The aim was to stop Copper deposits, remove need for corrosive Copper removing chemicals that end up damaging the Bore.
It worked great. Barrels were clean and accuracy was also great. No residues in the bores.
Main stumbling block was that here, it is very small volume business and not many casters are interested in coating small quantities of Jacketed or plated ammo.
In US, as far as I am aware, a lot of Rifle ammo is now coated on Cast and non Jacketed, ... some with Gas checks and some without gas checks.

Now that you have seen results that can be obtained, with Cast alloy, (92/6/2) that is what your aim should be.
I doubt that any thing else comes close to reproducing what can be achieved with Hi-Tek coatings, (but... I may be biased in my thinking LOL LOL).

The post extracted from US website that you posted, may be up to 5 years old. It really needs upgrading or removal.

[Ausglock]

OK.
Stop.
The Hiperf text is incorrect.
Ignore it.
You CAN NOT hurt the coating by baking too hot or too long.
Look at the above pictures. They were done in My oven. See how the green went brown?
I left it there while I baked a heap of 45 pills. When it cooled, I smashed it along with a green one like the pictures.
The vid is also of me smashing a few 45 pills. Note: the top to bottom smash actually gave a slight flake. you can see the glitter on my fingers. Where the side smash did not. They SHOT FINE!!!!! in 45ACP as well as 45LC. The main cause of failure is baking BEFORE the coating is DRY. The second reason is using too much per coat.
I will bake 1st coat. remove from oven and place in front of fan to cool. 5 minutes later, I will apply the second coat. and repeat the baking process just like the first.

BUT... I have also had some bullet sit for over a month before the second coat was applied and baked. I have also has some sit with the first coat applied, but not baked for 3 weeks. Same for some with second coat.
How cool should they be before applying the second coat??? cool to the touch of your hand is fine.

Please note... I ONLY use 2,6,92 Virgin alloy. I don't play with Mystery metal, WW etc etc. They have too many variables in their ingredients.
So.
Stop.
Take a breath.
Think what you are doing.
Check everything.
Try again.
Size to different dia's and test.

It isn't rocket science.
I can make 30,000 bullets and coat in one day.
Supply them to 10 different people using 10 different firearms, but all have the same excellent results. Zero leading and great accuracy.

See how you go.

[HI-TEK]

Haha!

Here we have 500 pages worth oven customizing,temp talk,PID mods, people counting bake time in seconds, more temp talk...

I personally couldn't care less about boolit colour as long as it shoots without leading.

Petander, good points. However, all of these points and publications are based on reproducibility of a specific products finished looks.
Many don't care about colour, but you would be surprised at just how many want to get exactly the same results each time.
Oven designs, temperature control, even heating, all play a part of solving variations and getting consistent quality.
I am glad that many have gone the extra distance to either prove things wrong or confirm things. All contributed to a well informed wealth of data and I thank all for the input.
That is why this blog is 500 plus pages long.

May be, I am to blame also, I simply could have made a Black, and that is it, and refuse to spend years developing new colours.. Then, there would by no more issues with colour or changes and reasons for such change. The thread would be 2 or 3 pages long with no feed back from any one, that included all the extra knowledge and experiences.

With all the input, we also learnt about use of Lead, that was not suitable for ammunition manufacture, as many tried to rely on fixing engineering problems with a fix all intent, using the coatings. When they found things were not going their way, it was the coatings fault every time.
Unfortunately or fortunately I have been doing this since 1992, and I have seen and learnt a lot during that time.
I recall one instance, where a customer had problems for a year with peeling and flaking. During that time, it was carefully avoided, that despite using solvent that was recommended,
they failed to advise, that solvent used, was a recycled wash solvent contaminated with Grease and oil. After nearly ripping out my few strands of hair in frustration, worrying the hell out of me, the truth finally emerged after about a year of complaints on the public forum. I never did see an apology for all the badmouthing that was done.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing was not a once off situation, and... ...it is sad.

[slide]

We all love you Joe!!!!!

[HI-TEK]

We all love you Joe!!!!!

Thanks for support Slide, you also have done many tests and published results, and all members on this site benefitted greatly. Your work and input is much appreciated.

[Elkins45]

Well, I thought I had it all figured out until my 44 Magnum bullets failed the wipe off test. I put them back in the same toaster oven for another heat cycle, and when I took them out there were little silvery droplets of molten lead on the bullets. I don’t know how the lead manage to melt at what was supposed to be 400°, but I had not seen that on any of my other 11 minute baking cycles. What makes it worse is that this batch of bullets was cast from a different alloy after I drained my pot, so I have to redrain it to cast them over again.

I’m thinking I may need to hook my PID up to my toaster oven.

[Ausglock]

We all love you Joe!!!!!

Hahahahahahaha... No we don't.....hahahahahahaha.

You want to know what the secret ingredient is that makes the HITEK coating what it is?

Mr, Joe has kept the secret for over 30 years.
Well here it is.. The secret ingredient is...
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Donkey Urine.

[HI-TEK]

Well, I thought I had it all figured out until my 44 Magnum bullets failed the wipe off test. I put them back in the same toaster oven for another heat cycle, and when I took them out there were little silvery droplets of molten lead on the bullets. I don’t know how the lead manage to melt at what was supposed to be 400°, but I had not seen that on any of my other 11 minute baking cycles. What makes it worse is that this batch of bullets was cast from a different alloy after I drained my pot, so I have to redrain it to cast them over again.

I’m thinking I may need to hook my PID up to my toaster oven.

Elkins45,
It may be possible, you may have a special alloy of Lead that has a low melting point.
Years ago, where I worked, we had to get a special alloy of Lead, that melted at much lower temperatures than normal alloys. We used this low melting alloy as heat transfer media, to de-polymerise Acrylic plastics.
Having said this, again, many years ago, with a different project, a commercial Caster made his own conveyor oven with heaters above and below a wire belt. It had fans as well.
The oven thermometer read 200C. A tray of coated alloy went through, and when it emerged from the oven, the edges of tray had molten Lead, and in the middle the coating was not baked.
There seemed a temperature variation of over 100C in the oven.
Three things were learnt,
1. Tray was over loaded and load was heaped up in the middle, air circulation was at the edges, and where probe was located, it was reading temperature in the coldest area.
2. The alloy in certain areas was much too close to heating element, which concentrated heat in that area, which melted the Lead.
3. Internal heat circulation was totally inadequate, and a high speed fan had to be installed.

I believe that because of the possibility of many variations or combinations of Lead alloys being available, and user has no idea of properties, is why many simply use a certified alloy which has a known physical property and produces a consistent result.

With your oven, if your alloy is a correct one, the melting of the coated projectiles may be exposing poor heating control and inadequate air movement. When you were thinking all is well, it was not.

[slide]

We all love you too Ausglock!!!!!!!

[Avenger442]

Joe
Two or three pages .......LOL. Any blog I post on is going to have at least that in just my post. I've posted so many words and photos here they have banned me from posting photos from my computer.

I had very little problems starting with Hi Tek. Sometimes I read the problems on here and am amazed that I was able to escape at first the things I see posted. Now mine have not been perfect by far and I have, in four years, had at least two cases of leading. One because I exceeded the ability of the alloy with the load. I have had flaking down to the lead when smashed when I coated too thick. And, like Treavor said, had bullets that gave just a dusting on the smash test which shot just fine. But have had so much success that I have not tried any other lubricant on my cast bullets. That is with the exception of some of my bullets that Slide PCed for me.

I want to see Petander succeed for a selfish reason. If he can shoot that 300 meter shot consistently accurate using Hi Tek that means it can be done out to 1000 yards accurately. And that is what I want to do or see someone do. If that is done there is no accuracy test left to pass for Hi Tek. Just think a Remington 700 rifle using a bullet that the guy made and coated in his garage consistently hitting a target (correction) over half a mile away. Now there is a test write up I would like to see.

We have a guy that occasionally comes to the range when I'm there. He is about my age so we talk some. He said he is ex-Army sniper and did work for the federal government as a sniper and trainer. He can put five of his handloads in the same ragged hole at 100 yards. They are not just one ragged hole, they are center target. And he can do it not just sometimes but every time he shoots. Best I've ever seen. I've thought about making him some bullets and trying to talk him into loading and shooting them. But longest range we have is 200 yards at that range and really not a test for him. We don't have a public or private range that I know of that has anything over 300 yards.

I still want to get back to testing myself but have to pass for right now. Too many things more important. Latest was my son was killed in an automobile accident right in front of me. I have come to terms with the idea that God allows things that I just don't like sometimes. You guys remember us as we deal with it. Hoping to get back into it about mid June. Should have things under control by then.

Petander
I think I have some photos of pass and failed smash test that will give you an idea of what we are talking about. Also some that gave what has been called a dusting that shoot fine at 100 yards in rifle. If you want them I'll PM them to you. I've posted them before so you can go back to my post and look at them. But have had to stop posting photos since the site updated.

[Ausglock]

We all love you too Ausglock!!!!!!!

Hahahaha... Pervert...hahaha..

[slide]

My gosh Avenger442, I had no idea,I am sorry for your loss. May God hold you and yours in his comforting hands.

[HI-TEK]

"Latest was my son was killed in an automobile accident right in front of me. I have come to terms with the idea that God allows things that I just don't like sometimes. You guys remember us as we deal with it.

Hello Avenger 442,
I am truly shocked and have a great deal of sorrow with this news. Please accept my sincere condolences to you and your family. Please keep in touch as possible.
Kindest regards to you and your family
Joe

[dikman]

Avenger, it's difficult to comprehend how you must be feeling right now. I think one of our greatest fears, as parents, is that our children die before we do. It is not going to be easy to be able to accept such a thing, but I truly hope you can remain strong and, in the future, can continue your valued contributions to this community.

My thoughts are with you and your family.

[Ausglock]

Is MEK readily available where you are?

MEK works great rather than Acetone. It gives longer swirl time in hot weather too.

[lazs]

After just spending a great week with my kids and grandkids... Avenger.... I have no words. I simply can not imagine the pain.

lazs

[Avenger442]

Guys

Slide and I had a conversation before this happened where I was going through all the other things that are keeping me from doing much of my hobby stuff. We have had a bad year and, if you look at it in another way, a good year. Two of my closest relatives my Mom and my Son are now a lot better off than I am. God has never left me alone to go through this type of loss. My hope is that all of you can say the same.
I appreciate the thoughts.
My contributions to this site may be minimal for a while. And I really didn't mean to hijack the conversation. So back to the coating.

[HI-TEK]

Petander I sent you a PM.

[HI-TEK]

Hi Avenger,
I do not think that you hijacked this conversations. I am sure that all who contributors really are upset about such family crisis matters and would not consider any ill feelings towards your posts.
I always place family first and most important, .......Coatings....... it can wait.