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Thread: simple Hi-Tek coating

  1. #9321
    Boolit Buddy
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    I'm wondering if maybe there is some kind of contamination going on. Right before I coat mine, I put about 5-6 pounds of boolits in a small plastic coffee can and pour in some fresh acetone, shake really well, then drain into another container. After draining well I spread them on my wire cooking tray and put under a fan for about 5 minutes to dry. Next I dump them into my plastic mixing bowl and coat them, dump them back onto the mesh cooking tray and put back under the fan for the drying process.
    I then repeat for the other 3 trays since I rotate through 4 trays at a time. I reuse the acetone from the first batch to rinse the other 3 batches and dispose of it after the 4th use. The used acetone usually has a slightly discolored tint to it.

  2. #9322
    Boolit Master Avenger442's Avatar
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    Yea, I did notice and understood why.
    Dennis
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  3. #9323
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    This is amazing. I am just new in powder coating. I must say I saw the same coat material used by Reliant. Good job!

  4. #9324
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    I have a clean towel I use to dump the boolits on when casting, from there they go into clean plastic bags for storage or clean containers to be coated in the near future. When the towel starts looking dirty I re-fold it and change what part of the towel I'm using.

    1 possible cause of contamination is water quenching in dirty water while casting which is useless if you're PCing or HiTek coating, you don't gain anything because you bake out anything the quenching gains and you risk contamination. and doesn't matter much if your lubbing.

    For you lot down under
    Last edited by Grmps; 12-13-2017 at 11:23 PM.

  5. #9325
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    tech54k. I am lost brother. Enlighten me on what you are talking about?
    Boolits !!!!! Does that mean what I think it do? It do!

  6. #9326
    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    And I thought it was just me. When I looked up the link Reliant make (very) large PC ovens and I wondered what it had to do with Hi-Tek coating.

  7. #9327
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    Quote Originally Posted by tech54K View Post
    This is amazing. I am just new in powder coating. I must say I saw the same coat material used by Reliant. Good job!
    Welcome to the thread Tech54K. But we do need you to clarify what you posted.
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  8. #9328
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    Is anybody out there using a natural gas or LP fueled oven?

  9. #9329
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    Quote Originally Posted by snscasting View Post
    Is anybody out there using a natural gas or LP fueled oven?
    Just out of curiosity, are you speaking of a house hold oven like we use to cook food? Propane same as natural gas fired except changed pilot orifice.

    I'll have to admit I had not though of or remember anyone asking this question. The only thing I have used propane for is smelting wheel weights and other raw lead resources. And that over a propane fired stove top. But I don't see why you couldn't use a gas fired household type of oven as long as you were able to regulate the temperature inside the oven (if you care about color, otherwise you just need to know they are cured). And you made sure the bullets were completely dry of solvent. Wouldn't want to set them on fire to cure coating. I remember some using a conveyor type oven. Most of those are gas fired.

    Joe
    What do you think? Anything about a coated and dry bullet in a gas fired oven?
    And just ,again, out of curiosity, could you set one on fire to cure it?
    Last edited by Avenger442; 12-21-2017 at 01:49 PM.
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  10. #9330
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    I'm looking into walk-in type ovens, that are safe for solvents. Similar to this: http://fobinc.com/product/Ovens/Walk...k-In_Oven/7310

    They move a lot of air and do vent to the outside. I've read that gas ovens have slightly higher humidity as a byproduct of the gas...

    I'm guessing it will work, but would hate to drop 15 grand on one and it not work well!

  11. #9331
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    Quote Originally Posted by snscasting View Post
    I'm looking into walk-in type ovens, that are safe for solvents. Similar to this: http://fobinc.com/product/Ovens/Walk...k-In_Oven/7310

    They move a lot of air and do vent to the outside. I've read that gas ovens have slightly higher humidity as a byproduct of the gas...

    I'm guessing it will work, but would hate to drop 15 grand on one and it not work well!
    And I thought my bakers pride commercial convection oven was a monster.

  12. #9332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger442 View Post
    Joe
    What do you think? Anything about a coated and dry bullet in a gas fired oven?
    And just ,again, out of curiosity, could you set one on fire to cure it?
    Avenger442,
    My only experience with gas fired ovens were in connection with investigation of a gas burner using liquefied gas, where the burned and air were pre-mixed using an external mixing chamber, and the temperature controlled hot gas was ducted into an oven which was internally fan forced/circulated to mix air inside oven evenly. They work OK, but because you are mixing burnt gas and diluting with cool air, you use a lot of energy and loose a lot of energy, as the oven is a flow through air system.
    The hot air that is made and is being forced into oven, a very large volume/percentage of it, and the heat it contains, is lost in exhaust continuously.
    It is not so much the moisture that will cause a problem with coating & baking, it is energy losses and increased running costs with exhausting produced hot gas.
    Because air flow is continuous throughput, and flame and air dilution mixing box/temperature control (flameproof) is externally located from oven, (with positive air displacement) traces of solvent in oven should not become a problem as it is, or should be, as the vapours are continuously vented and diluted through exhaust and not towards heat source.
    Best way is, to discuss with an oven manufacturer who should be aware of requirements.

    In terms of coating and flammability aspects, the coating resists burning and should withstand 250 C before major degradation occurs. I have never tried to deliberately burn the coating, and may be an interesting experiment to determine if and when coating will burn. I have seen coating float on top of Molten alloy but I had not seen it burn. From limited view of this recycling, all I recall is that coating simply chars to a powder from what I have seen, and is removed as waste from molten alloy..

    Sorry I really cannot advise further.

  13. #9333
    Boolit Master
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    You might send a pm to Donnie. He has done the hitek on a commercial basis. I don't know what kind of ovens he used?
    Boolits !!!!! Does that mean what I think it do? It do!

  14. #9334
    Boolit Master Avenger442's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snscasting View Post
    I'm looking into walk-in type ovens, that are safe for solvents. Similar to this: http://fobinc.com/product/Ovens/Walk...k-In_Oven/7310

    They move a lot of air and do vent to the outside. I've read that gas ovens have slightly higher humidity as a byproduct of the gas...

    I'm guessing it will work, but would hate to drop 15 grand on one and it not work well!
    Man that's a monster oven. And $15,000 you got to be looking at commercial production. And I have no experience with walk in ovens. We used some big ovens in the institutional and commercial kitchens we did. But nothing that big. Isn't this what they use in commercial powder coating? The one you linked to looks like it vents out the top. So most of the moisture would go out the vent along with a lot of heat. I'm not sure that the additional moisture, most of which would vent out the top, would impact the use of the coating. So no help here.
    While I work at it, it is by God's grace that it happens. So it is best I ask him what, how and when before I start..

  15. #9335
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    Quote Originally Posted by slide View Post
    You might send a pm to Donnie. He has done the hitek on a commercial basis. I don't know what kind of ovens he used?
    Slide
    My limited knowledge on powder coating ovens is, that majority of Powder coatings, generate moisture during curing, (not Hi-Tek powders).
    So propane type gas heated ovens, are not a problem with moisture, as there is plenty of moisture generated from powder coated objects.

    My rationale with baking Hi-Tek coated objects, is to use heat, in a vented oven system, with internal surface area confined in as smallest space as possible, with cyclonic air circulation, and this small internal surface area transfers heat from smallest volume of heated air into what is being cured.
    This I am suggesting is most heat efficient way to bake.
    You are essentially, not heating up very large amounts of air, and internal oven components, that cannot efficiently transfer contained heat to baked objects. In small internal volume ovens, you are not venting a lot of heated air from where you have not used up heat from all the internal heated air, that was made for baking..

    That is why many chose a wire belt conveyor system, that in comparison, travels through a very small heated compartment that concentrates heat to bake load.

    I really cannot envisage gas fired controlled heating not working with such a small conveyor type oven if properly designed.

  16. #9336
    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    I've remelted quite a few () and yes, you just end up with a dark "sludge" on top which you just scoop off (doesn't smoke or anything, just sits there). I've also baked the Gunmetal at 240C to get a darker colour and it worked ok. The first batch I did, however, I placed the tray in the top position, right under the element and even though it was set for 200C they were ruined and flaked badly. I don't know what temperature it got to right under the element but it was obviously well in excess of 240C!

    Using LP gas for heating does produce moisture as a byproduct (personal experience here) so could be an issue in a closed oven. Also, regulating gas to keep an even temperature is a bit more complex than just hooking up a PID.

  17. #9337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger442 View Post
    Man that's a monster oven. And $15,000 you got to be looking at commercial production. And I have no experience with walk in ovens. We used some big ovens in the institutional and commercial kitchens we did. But nothing that big. Isn't this what they use in commercial powder coating? The one you linked to looks like it vents out the top. So most of the moisture would go out the vent along with a lot of heat. I'm not sure that the additional moisture, most of which would vent out the top, would impact the use of the coating. So no help here.
    Yes, it's a commercial powder coating type of oven. I'm sitting on several hundred thousand that need to be coated, and can't coat them fast enough to keep my crew going! I think we are going to move forward and give it a go... fingers crossed! I'll let you all know how it goes when the time comes. Thanks for all the input!

  18. #9338
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    Quote Originally Posted by snscasting View Post
    Yes, it's a commercial powder coating type of oven. I'm sitting on several hundred thousand that need to be coated, and can't coat them fast enough to keep my crew going! I think we are going to move forward and give it a go... fingers crossed! I'll let you all know how it goes when the time comes. Thanks for all the input!
    SNS Casting
    I would like to throw in some suggestions, if you are considering such an oven.
    1. Have installed a programmable control system, where you can set a pre-drying temperature, (for example 50C) for a period of time, say 50C for 1 hour or half hour, (manually re-settable time to adequately suit for drying, and then baking)
    That way, you use oven to speed up drying process, and also remove moisture and trapped solvent, and then for control after drying stage, to continue to ramp up heat, to heat cure coating load, to set temperatures..
    If you have the oven control system, after drying stage, automatically ramp up baking temperature, to get coating to at least 180C or above, and keep it at 180 or above thereafter for at least 3 minutes you can increase output greatly.
    2. You must be able to determine just how long it takes, (Time) to heat up a load of metal to say 50C, hold it there for a set time, and then, how long it takes (Time), to get same load to at least 180C-200C.
    3. Once you have worked out how long it takes to fully dry a specific load in oven say at 50C. it is important also to find out how long it takes then to raise temperature of same load of metal (not oven temperature) to get the load to a minimum of 180C.
    Once you know that time to reach a specific quantity of loaded metal temperature,(not Oven temperatures), you can determine just how long each loaded batch will take from the time you load oven to adequately finish cure.
    There are simple inexpensive re-settable programmable controls available, which can be programmed to get what you want to achieve.
    The controls I have come across here, can slowly raise temperature to a pre set point, hold it there for a set time, at a specific rate of temperature increase, then control to hold it there for a pre-set time,( Drying time), then, the control ramp up temperature to a second setting, ( curing conditions) and also hold it there for a pre-set time.
    Talk to oven manufacturer of your needs. If they wish to communicate with me about this matter, I would be happy to have them make direct contact to discuss.
    WARNING
    If you load coated alloy, that contains solvent (not room temperature dried first) then all electricals and controls on oven must be flameproof.
    The drying stage, oven must be vented well, to reduce possibility of fire and or an explosion from flammable solvent fumes generated during drying.
    I hope this helps,
    Hi-Tek

  19. #9339
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaDoubleJ View Post
    Jumping back into the thread again after about 100 pages. Failed the smash test for the first time yesterday. I've overcoated boolits while I was learning and increased their diameter by .008", and they still passed the smash. My most recent batch is the best one I've ever done as far as looks go, actually followed the directions this time, thought I was golden. Whacked three of them with a hammer, got this all three times



    Where did I go wrong? This is getting frustrating.

    10 grams of powder, 1.75oz of acetone, 100 boolits at a time, plenty of dry time, 390 degrees for 9 minutes.
    Ok, I'm back again, and my coating attempts have failed again. The 230gr 45s shown below were coated the same as the one in my quote, but baked around 360 degrees for a little over 10 minutes. Failed the smash test. The 40 grain 22s were done with a fresh batch of coating, this time using MEK instead of acetone. Small batch of coating, 6 grams powder to 1 oz MEK. Everything seemed like it was going great, three nice thin coats coming in at .001 to .002 thick, perfect! But no, I suck again. Someone asked to see pictures of the flakes, so I included them on the paper with the boolits. I also dried the boolits ten minutes outside, and then warmed them up on the oven before actually baking them, as recommended. 2 different flavors of coating, 2 different types of thinner, 16 different ways of drying and baking and coating and cooling, no dice. I'm about to fly one of you guys to the states to show me if you can get this stuff to work, because I certainly can't.

    Edit: I did realize there's one thing I'm doing differently than before, and that's water quenching. I used to drop the boolits into a box with a towel in it, but I was smooshing a lot of them. I've switched to a large container of water, would that be the cause of my issues?

    Last edited by ThaDoubleJ; 12-22-2017 at 10:47 PM.

  20. #9340
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    [QUOTE=ThaDoubleJ;4238392]

    Hi ThaDouble,

    I may be wrong, but it seem to me, with 360F oven temperature, in 10 minutes, you did not get your loaded coated projectiles to at least 180C (354F).
    You have to measure your loaded alloy temperature, and do not rely on oven temperature is guideline for correct baking.

    The load, must get to at least 180C, and then held there, (or above) for 3 more minutes thereafter.
    A temperature reading of hot air in the oven , at a specific point, may not be representative of what is actually happening.
    You cannot assume that because you are measuring a certain temperature inside the oven that this is representative of actual conditions throughout the oven and metal loading.

    If first coating is dried adequately, heat,..... even if excessively, will not prevent coating bonding.

    If you are totally satisfied that your first coat is dry, bake only a few at 400F for 10 minutes.
    Take them out, cool, and test.
    If it fails, then it was not dry enough. If it passes, only then bake the rest.

    Before you apply a second and third coat, make sure first coat passes tests.
    Coating over bad first coat, will not fix adhesion problems. You have to get first coat right before you coat again.

    Keep in mind, when you put more metal into your oven, it will take longer to get to temperature and cook correctly.
    That is why you need to monitor alloy temperature and not oven temperature.

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