simple Hi-Tek coating

[landers]

Maybe a stupid question, but often is the answer no.

Have you slugged the barrel so you know what dim. to size to for good function for lead bullets?

Surprisingly I have, well except the new 40, I just did it tonight.
The .45 slugs at .4512 and I size the bullets to .4525, should be big enough. The new 40 may be an issue, it slugged at .401 and I am sizing to .4015. I am using 231 powder in the 45 and power pistol in the 40, I am wondering if a faster powder like tight group would help.

[Kjeksen87]

Surprisingly I have, well except the new 40, I just did it tonight.
The .45 slugs at .4512 and I size the bullets to .4525, should be big enough. The new 40 may be an issue, it slugged at .401 and I am sizing to .4015. I am using 231 powder in the 45 and power pistol in the 40, I am wondering if a faster powder like tight group would help.

The measurments should be from a micrometer and not a dig. caliper. The caliper has measuring tolerances that could make or break the result. Micrometer that is proper calibrated has not. I myself are using fast powder. I have tried to shoot .0005 bigger bullets with good results. Upping the pressure might help the bullet to obturate better. I would give that a try.

In my mind I would have increased the BHN a tad on the .40.
I have shot some 9mm 10BHN with ever so slight lead "residue" at the muzzle end. No "residue" when upping the BHN to 15.
I say residue cause it was not so much that I would like to use the word leading!

[landers]

The measurments should be from a micrometer and not a dig. caliper. The caliper has measuring tolerances that could make or break the result. Micrometer that is proper calibrated has not. I myself are using fast powder. I have tried to shoot .0005 bigger bullets with good results. Upping the pressure might help the bullet to obturate better. I would give that a try.

In my mind I would have increased the BHN a tad on the .40.
I have shot some 9mm 10BHN with ever so slight lead "residue" at the muzzle end. No "residue" when upping the BHN to 15.
I say residue cause it was not so much that I would like to use the word leading!

the measurements were taken using a micrometer not a caliper. The S&W 40 was a little hard to measure as it has lands and groove absolutely on opposite sides but I was able to get enough contact on the edges of the lands on the bullet. I am hesitant to up the BHN in my alloy, these are hollow point I cast and would like them to perform properly, it seems anytime I add any amount of alloy with antimony they become to brittle and fragment. I will pick up a can of tight group this week and try to see if the faster powder helps and probably a .402 size die for the 40. The one I really would like to get work is the 45 acp so back to the range.

thanks for the input it is appreciated

[ioon44]

Mixing colours is no problem. But your colour will be anything. Black with any other colour (except gold) will be horse poo colour.
If it is wiping back to bare lead, then, yes, your oven is too cool. Mine was only getting to about 150 Deg C when the thermostat ccrapped itself.

I add all the small amounts of coating to my liquid Black so I could start with a new mix each time. The colors were Candy Apple Red, Red Copper Bronze 500 and the coating came out a horse poo color, but the bad thing was it smelled like horse poo when it was baking.
I shot these in 9 mm and .45 with no leading and good accuracy.
Now I just add new mix to what is left over of the same color, I have not had a problem doing this.

[Kjeksen87]

I understand. It might work for you with low BHN. It might not. It worked fairly well for me with low BHN in moderat load. But the higher BHN worked better for me as there were no lead residue in the barrel using higher BHN.

[Avenger442]

Just got home from going to the range. The 45 shot great with 10 BHN lead hollow points coated with Gunmetal three coats. Did not closely inspect the barrel but would say no significant leading since the accuracy stayed the same from first shot till last. And, I have shot these loads before. One of the best days of shooting I have had in a while. Shot with no rest. Not much of that one inch dot left in the middle at 15 yards. Almost all of the shots inside the three inch. Which is really good for me. Pistols are really not my guns. Shot a Ruger 357 Black Hawk that belonged to a friend as well. It was a good day.

If I can get the 44 magnum working this well,,,,,Next time 25 yards.

[Rich22]

HiTek gold - 4 coats real thin - 300BO 145gr PB @ 100, ~2k fps. Cooked 12 min. @ 390F. Shot a few 120gr UMC to reset the scope, different target, then these. No leading, almost decent accuracy, ~ACWW + 0.5% Cu. POA on one group is off scanner. Better results than last year with H.T.d alloy. Then I went & blasted a bunch of clays for fun. Another round of testing then coat a bunch.
Attachment 162440

Which mold do you use for that? Still looking for one that feeds well

[Intel6]

These are a 155 gr. Elco bullet from a NOE mould and are meant to be heavy bullets for shooting out of 9mm's.

I coated them with 3 light coats of Bronze 500 and sized them to .358" I am liking the Bronze 500, especially in nickel cases.

I got the mould mainly for my S&W 929 8 shot 9mm revolver but wanted to try them in autos also. I have shot .358" sized bullets both in the 929 and various 9mm autos without any issues so I just stick with that.

In the pic you can see them loaded in a moon clip for the revolver, a few in nickel cases for the autos and one of the bullets so you can see what it looks like.

Neal in AZ

[slide]

Looks like a good job!

[Rich22]

Encountered a problem today. Thin coat (.75 ml/lb) number 4 on some 9mm's are failing smash test at 400F 12 minutes. Dried for 30 Hours. Coated twice then sized then coated once earlier this week, all tests passed. Attempted 3 test batches, all fail. At the same time I cooked a test batch of another set that is on coat number 3 after being sized and they are passing with no issues. If I have to remove the coating that is dried but not cooked on all of these I am going to flip, Approx 1800 bullets. Anyone have any ideas?

[Ausglock]

Hmmm.... How much are you sizing them down? I had this with a Lee 44 RNFP that was coated twice and sized .430 for my 44 Mag. A mate wanted some for his 44/40 so I ran them through a .427 sizer and threw another coat on and baked them.
They failed the smash test.

Food for thought???

[Gremlin460]

Maybe there is a maximum downsize point, whereby the coating bond to the lead is broken.
If your .430 pass the smash test but sizing down a further .003 to .427 breaks the bond?

I take it you already sized to .430 , so just for argument sake, if you sized from .432 out of the mold , in total you are sizing .005 to the .427

I do not know , just postulating, there has to be a point where the downsizing has a limit, I know PC has from experience.

What we need is someone with a range of sizing dies that can keep sizing down in incremental steps until smash test failure point is reached. I we learn that , dried/baked coating has a limit of .008 before we break the adhesion bond, all well and good. It would be nice to know that limit, if it exists would it not?

[leadman]

I would skip the sizing before baking unless there is a specific reason you need to do so. Might increase the bake time by a couple of minutes to see if this could be the problem. Sometimes the oven is slow to recover after the door is opened. I have crushed rock in the bottom of my ovens to help maintain heat.
I haven't sized between coats but I have removed wax type lube off of sized boolits and coated and they failed. This could be because the boolit is burnished by the die and the coating won't stick.

[Ausglock]

Yeah. An interesting situation.
Just came in from cleaning the Para 45.
A few weeks ago, I put a few 100 Hardline 230gn RNBB coated with 2 coates of Kryptonite Green downrange. Afterwards inspected the barrel. It was clean and shiny. Last weekend, I fired some old loads that used the Lee TL 230gn RN coated with dark green. These were loaded about 3 years ago. I also fired 50 or so of the Lyman 452374 230gn RN lubed with White Label Wax lube. Tonight, I had to break out the Lewis Lead remover to clean the lead out of the barrel. long streaks that were most of the way down the bore. I have fired the Lyman bullets before on their own and they worked well. So, I am blaming the TL Lees. Tomorrow I am fireing more Hardline 230RN and Accurate Molds 230gnRN 45-230MZ both coated with the experimental Powder version of Kryptonite Green. I love this colour.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Gremlin460;3567447]

You raise some interesting points.

From what I have read, and I may be wrong, but my guess is, that coating many times in fact will provide the failures experienced.
I will try to explain, why I am thinking along these lines.
I have in the past, referred the coatings to an example, of comparing it to a sheet of glass. If your glass sheet is say 1/4 thick, and you try to bend it, it explodes.
However, if you make the glass sheet a few microns thick, then it is very flexible and will deform easily without breaking just like Glass wool.
I am thinking, that by building up several layers of the coating, due to its tough nature, then it may be possible, that the fails mode is reached simply, by the fact of the physical property of the coating becoming much more brittle with the extra thickness.
The smash tests, are certainly well in excess to what is done during sizing, and, no coating comes off, and, these are with two coats baked.
This "theory" seems to be supported by the mere fact, that after passing sizing tests initially, and re-coating again, the smash tests then fail.
Attached is an example of smash tests on coated alloy. The destructive forces used, far exceeds sizing shape changes.
May be, there is room for experimentation to determine at what point the coating will fail/crack, based on thickness applied.

[Gremlin460]

HMMMM OK, I get you line of thought with thicker coats...

When we do a smash test, my thinking is the overall surface becomes larger, but when we size, the overall surface area becomes, smaller does it not?
I never size bare lead before coating, it has proven itself a way of making the coating fail, cleaned casts that were loobed before, also fail.

I only coat twice... they colour maybe better with a third, but at 900+fps I cant see that anyway...

We know that Trev is sorta kinda half decent at coating, well he has had a few work. If he can take a pill that's working and size it down .003 and it stops working.. I would be interested to know why.
Of course we have to bear in mind it could be the barrel or rifling at fault in the gun.. The 44/40 was his mates gun, maybe Trev could check it out when he has time...

[ioon44]

Encountered a problem today. Thin coat (.75 ml/lb) number 4 on some 9mm's are failing smash test at 400F 12 minutes. Dried for 30 Hours. Coated twice then sized then coated once earlier this week, all tests passed. Attempted 3 test batches, all fail. At the same time I cooked a test batch of another set that is on coat number 3 after being sized and they are passing with no issues. If I have to remove the coating that is dried but not cooked on all of these I am going to flip, Approx 1800 bullets. Anyone have any ideas?

What is the temperature of your bullets during the 30 hours of drying?

In the colder weather I have found that if I dry my bullets at 100 deg F to 130 deg F for 1 hour and bake 12 minutes at 400 deg F they pass the test fine.

You might try this before you try to remove the coating, I doubt it can be removed.

[ioon44]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;3567489]

You raise some interesting points.

From what I have read, and I may be wrong, but my guess is, that coating many times in fact will provide the failures experienced.
I will try to explain, why I am thinking along these lines.
I have in the past, referred the coatings to an example, of comparing it to a sheet of glass. If your glass sheet is say 1/4 thick, and you try to bend it, it explodes.
However, if you make the glass sheet a few microns thick, then it is very flexible and will deform easily without breaking just like Glass wool.
I am thinking, that by building up several layers of the coating, due to its tough nature, then it may be possible, that the fails mode is reached simply, by the fact of the physical property of the coating becoming much more brittle with the extra thickness.
The smash tests, are certainly well in excess to what is done during sizing, and, no coating comes off, and, these are with two coats baked.
This "theory" seems to be supported by the mere fact, that after passing sizing tests initially, and re-coating again, the smash tests then fail.
Attached is an example of smash tests on coated alloy. The destructive forces used, far exceeds sizing shape changes.
May be, there is room for experimentation to determine at what point the coating will fail/crack, based on thickness applied.

I have had the 3rd coat fail the smash test after coats 1 & 2 passed the smash test, this was before sizing and the bullets shot fine without any leading.

Comparing it to a sheet of glass sounds like a good possibility.

[Rich22]

Hmmm.... How much are you sizing them down? I had this with a Lee 44 RNFP that was coated twice and sized .430 for my 44 Mag. A mate wanted some for his 44/40 so I ran them through a .427 sizer and threw another coat on and baked them.
They failed the smash test.

Food for thought???

They come out raw at .358, after two coatings I am getting .3585 with my micrometer. Sizing down to .356 via NOE push through.

Thank you

[Rich22]

I would skip the sizing before baking unless there is a specific reason you need to do so. Might increase the bake time by a couple of minutes to see if this could be the problem. Sometimes the oven is slow to recover after the door is opened. I have crushed rock in the bottom of my ovens to help maintain heat.
I haven't sized between coats but I have removed wax type lube off of sized boolits and coated and they failed. This could be because the boolit is burnished by the die and the coating won't stick.

I may have misspoken, I sized after coat 2, then proceeded to coat and cook further. I have lead blocks in the bottom of mine, for a 80 dollar oven it holds 400 plus or minus 5 degrees quite well.