simple Hi-Tek coating

[kweidner]

I just don't get it. If i had fingernails made from diamonds the coating might scrape off. I have been using this product since Februaryish. At first I too had issues to work out. Stay the course but don't slam a product many use and have had incredible success with. The curing time and temp is critical. The drying time is too. I just ran 100 .380 out of my tcp 2 days ago and no lead at all. Grouping less than 2 inches at 15yds. I use coww with 2% tin for .380 and .45 acp. These lower pressure rounds get black but I use gold for everything else. I coat 3x. is it possible you have too much alloy in your oven? Use a infrared thermometer and check the boolit temp itself. Air temp and alloy temp are entirely different. I like many here coat in 5# batches.

[sierra1911]

TES, do your bullets work if you coat them with Lee Liquid Alox or Recluse's 45/45/10? If so, the problem is probably your HiTek coating; if not it's probably your bullets. Might narrow down the problem if you try a few rounds with just ALOX.

[Love Life]

The gauntlet has been thrown TES. It's up to you to pick it up.

[Ausglock]

Well. It is Christmas day here in the land of OZ.
I would like to wish all you caster/coaters the best for the season.

Keep casting....

[Moonman]

Merry Xmas to All.

Keep Casting and Coating Folks.

[Gremlin460]

Everyone have a great day, no matter where you are or what your doing, take time to smell the Roses and enjoy yourself.
Thanks to Trev and Joe for their patience and assistance, thanks to many other for hints and tips, and for the support to keep trying when things went awry.

[zomby woof]

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!
Got me a Breville 800. Now to wait for it to warm up. 5 degrees F right now.

[Love Life]

Merry Christmas all. My wife and I are headed to shoot what Santa brought here. 120 Wadcutters coated twice with HT red copper. Clean, accurate, and fun.

Still hearing crickets.....

[TES]

OK...it is Christmas so I have not been doing anything on the computer for a day or so.

I last had a conversation with Swamprat and he did send me some of his bullets. My concerns were the arid and very cold climate here and that it does strange things to plastics and polymers that don't happen anywhere else.

Now...my intentions are not to discount anyone's successes with this product. It must work for some or else it would have been quickly discounted as a fraud.

However..yes Donnie's bullets are flaking like glitter with the smash test. I have had them since ??feb?? of this year. They did not fail when I first got them. whic is why i bought the product from him. This leads me to believe that with time and our climate they will not work here. I have literally coated about 20,000 projectiles that pass acetone and smash when made and only after 3 months of sitting in my boxes in my shop I am getting a failure of the coating.

Maybe I have hard fingernails....it's possible mine are harder than most.
Maybe my FCD is made by lee
Maybe it could be a lot of things.

Let me tell you what I am...

I'm frustrated beyond belief that this simple coating seems to work for a month or two HERE.
I am frustrated that no matter who's bullets I use they will or will probably lead my barrels.
I have used traditional lead cast and lubed in my g19 that have leaded less.
I have tried everything from soft to ridiculously hard lead all with multiple variations (5-1-5, 5-1-6, 5-1-7)of the coating (yes scientifically with from 5 to 20 min bakes @ 360 - 420) only to get another verdict on why it failed for yet another reason.

I do want to apologize for making my frustrations know here on this forum.
I do not feel like it was the best way to voice my frustrations... but I am now looking at restructuring my entire production line because I was not able to make this work for me here.

Out of the .."god only knows" thousands of rounds that I have made with cast, plated and FMJ bullets I have never heard so many "why this didn't work" scenarios.

I'm done with this..for me it is just simply way to much of a question mark in my mind for a start up ammo company.

The biggest one being out of all of the advice here (there are pages of it) why are none of these trouble shooting answers or advice listed on the product sheet. Why isn't the LFCD mentioned as a possible failure point before the point of purchase?

Love life..if you want to send me some...my address is still posted...I did not say "do not send these without an invitation."
Anyone else that would like to send some bullets for Cold/Dry weather testing lets do it. I would love to see if it is just "Here" that is the problem. Maybe it is something simple..maybe not.

To date everything that I have made or has been sent to me that has sat in this climate for more than 3 months is failing. ( no I never let the coating in the bottle freeze just the bullets)

You see I was doubting myself for weeks pulling my hair out....then I remembered that I had about 15 or so BB left in a drawer. Well then I got mad and I probably should not have. But then again maybe I have every right to be mad. This is requiring a total rethink on every decision that I have made to date.


end crickets.

Sorry...Donnie I think you are 1000% a stand up guy. I don't doubt you at all. I just wish that it was a simple coating for me. If there is a way to figure this out...I do not think it is going to be easy. If you are willing....lets put it through the paces.....hopefully before I smelt everything and have to sell it.

[Love Life]

Odd. My bullets have been coated with red copper for a couple months and sit out in my unheated garage. The temps have been swinging in the low teens to the below zero teens at night, to 40 degrees plus during the day. I live in a dry climate.

My color and catalyst have been sitting in my garage since mid summer when the temps were high, and are now enjoying winter in the Sierra Nevadas.

My bullets still coat fine, bake fine, and performance/durability of the coating has not degraded one iota.

I live at 5,000 ft elevation, and where I wander looking for the elusive flake usually hovers at 6,000 to 7,000 ft elevation. No lead issues, no failure, just magic. I don't know what to tell you on your coating.

[HI-TEK]

OK...it is Christmas so I have not been doing anything on the computer for a day or so.

I last had a conversation with Swamprat and he did send me some of his bullets. My concerns were the arid and very cold climate here and that it does strange things to plastics and polymers that don't happen anywhere else.

Now...my intentions are not to discount anyone's successes with this product. It must work for some or else it would have been quickly discounted as a fraud.

However..yes Donnie's bullets are flaking like glitter with the smash test. I have had them since ??feb?? of this year. They did not fail when I first got them. whic is why i bought the product from him. This leads me to believe that with time and our climate they will not work here. I have literally coated about 20,000 projectiles that pass acetone and smash when made and only after 3 months of sitting in my boxes in my shop I am getting a failure of the coating.

Maybe I have hard fingernails....it's possible mine are harder than most.
Maybe my FCD is made by lee
Maybe it could be a lot of things.

Let me tell you what I am...

I'm frustrated beyond belief that this simple coating seems to work for a month or two HERE.
I am frustrated that no matter who's bullets I use they will or will probably lead my barrels.
I have used traditional lead cast and lubed in my g19 that have leaded less.
I have tried everything from soft to ridiculously hard lead all with multiple variations (5-1-5, 5-1-6, 5-1-7)of the coating (yes scientifically with from 5 to 20 min bakes @ 360 - 420) only to get another verdict on why it failed for yet another reason.

I do want to apologize for making my frustrations know here on this forum.
I do not feel like it was the best way to voice my frustrations... but I am now looking at restructuring my entire production line because I was not able to make this work for me here.

Out of the .."god only knows" thousands of rounds that I have made with cast, plated and FMJ bullets I have never heard so many "why this didn't work" scenarios.

I'm done with this..for me it is just simply way to much of a question mark in my mind for a start up ammo company.

The biggest one being out of all of the advice here (there are pages of it) why are none of these trouble shooting answers or advice listed on the product sheet. Why isn't the LFCD mentioned as a possible failure point before the point of purchase?

Love life..if you want to send me some...my address is still posted...I did not say "do not send these without an invitation."
Anyone else that would like to send some bullets for Cold/Dry weather testing lets do it. I would love to see if it is just "Here" that is the problem. Maybe it is something simple..maybe not.

To date everything that I have made or has been sent to me that has sat in this climate for more than 3 months is failing. ( no I never let the coating in the bottle freeze just the bullets)

You see I was doubting myself for weeks pulling my hair out....then I remembered that I had about 15 or so BB left in a drawer. Well then I got mad and I probably should not have. But then again maybe I have every right to be mad. This is requiring a total rethink on every decision that I have made to date.


end crickets.

Sorry...Donnie I think you are 1000% a stand up guy. I don't doubt you at all. I just wish that it was a simple coating for me. If there is a way to figure this out...I do not think it is going to be easy. If you are willing....lets put it through the paces.....hopefully before I smelt everything and have to sell it.

Tes,
Thanks for your blog.
I Am sorry that you had so many apparent failures, and hope that the Christmas spirit had eased your frustration.

Apology for my late contributions, but we are also very busy this time of year with family matters, and our annual shutdown and trying to get out orders.

I am also surprised, that some of theses matters were not shared with Donnie & I, to try and identify why things are going wrong.
Until your posts, I was unaware of any problems.

I have taken note of a few things over the last 12 months or so.
1. The cured coating on alloy, was in fact frozen down to minus 49C and allowed to come to room temperatures, and smash tested fine.
2. As noted by quite a few users, the control of baking conditions needs to be well controlled and is specific with equipment being used.

To quote your own figures
"(yes scientifically with from 5 to 20 min bakes @ 360 - 420) only to get another verdict on why it failed for yet another reason."

It seems to me, that the cooking times quoted at specific temperatures, may be one key factor why there may be a problem.

(The other variable, which will cause similar failures, is not allowing or achieving correct drying of first coat.) This scenario can occur with cold and damp conditions and with incorrectly stored Acetone, which has absorbed a lot of water.

Initially, addressing non drying issues, at cold conditions, the Acetone used, evaporates and also chills alloy during drying.
(Acetone can absorb a lot of water from the air, especially if air is humid.)

The absorbed moisture/solvent, is then trapped in small amounts in coating film, and despite appearing dry, and ready to cook, there can be an unseen problem.

The minute you place such coating into the oven, the moisture/solvent trapped, becomes super heated steam, which prevents correct bonding to alloy.

This is one cause of such results you are describing.
To cure this type of problem, the (thinly) coated projectiles need more drying and possibly in warmed conditions. Some use waste heat from ovens to warm first coat, which is the "key" bonding coat.

If you are cooking for 20 minutes at 360F is fairly close to requirements.
However, I do not know if you are measuring air temperatures or projectiles temperatures?
This area is very critical.

a. If at 360F the air temperature is what you are measuring, at the 20 minute mark, (depending on metal loading and air circulation) product may not be curing, as the coating is a good insulator of heat, the alloy may not be up to temperature for correct cure and correct adhesion to the alloy.

The typical symptoms are, that the coating comes off alloy in shreds as the coating is simply dried without fuse bonding to alloy.
(In a rough comparison, it is like dissolving sugar into water, and then, drying off the water, which leaves dry crumbly sugar on surface. However, when this dry crumbly sugar is heated to fuse point, it melts and is sticky, and strongly bonds to surfaces)

Both alloy and coating needs to be at set temperature until correct core/bonding is achieved.

Depending on your equipment, these details are variable, and that is why each user is required to determine best conditions for their manufacture for the type of equipment being used.

b. Coatings are generally cured at 380-390F for between 10-12 minutes, (depending on colour) with ideal air circulation and metal loading, where air is evenly circulated around every projectile.

The recommended cooking details are, that at minimum of 180C (356F) (again,depending on metal loading), and air circulation in oven, the cooking time can vary from 15-20 minutes, and possibly more.

From your above quoted details, it seems that the cooking times were either at too high a temperatures and for too long, or, you were not measuring the projectiles temperatures, but instead the air temperatures, which then would provide a false result.

There is also a possibility of inadequate drying before cooking.

I have no details of your coating drying conditions so I cannot make further suggestions.

So at this stage, and until I get more step by step details of your process, I can only generalize, as above, with some details of what is appearing to be happening.
I am very happy to assist with these matters, and have communicated with Donnie with trying to establish and cure problematic areas.
Looking forward to your reply.

[Gateway Bullets]

Tes,

I coated all summer long with no problems with my coating (black, red copper, gold). The temps dropped to 5-20f and my problems started. I had the same problems that you state. The biggest problem that I had was bad acetone and failure of drying method.

Listen to Joe and he can help with 98% of your problems. I started keeping a log of what I was doing just to make sure I wasn't screwing up!

If you got your coating from Donnie, give him a call and he is more than willing to help you anyway he can.

I know it can be VERY frustrating when the coating fails the tests. Just walk away for a little bit and rethink what you're doing. Start from scratch and you will find out your problem.

[TES]

My shop is and has been heated for the duration of the recent testing.

I have mildly heat cured (100 deg) the coating/core over a dry heat with fan source before placing in an oven.

The oven has two separate internal therms for consistency. It also has been lined with fire stone/brick to help with consistency.

I have baked them only long enough to have them pass the acetone test and then the smash test. There has been adequate cooling between coats and adequate pre heat curing before baking.

As I have stated it is very dry here...just bending your fingers can make your skin crack....I'm not kidding about this one. So I doubt that moisture is a problem.

Gateway...I have started from square one about 5 times now. Each time inching my way up to a passing test and when I get to loading and shooting I get a little ear burn.

I have also shot and tested others bullets with the same result...so I know that it is not just me. How ever I will say that Donnies bullets wont scratch as easily but the smash test makes them flake worse than mine.

I'll take a vid in the morning and post it here...start to finish for any doubters.

TES

[Ausglock]

So... when you fire them, where in the bore is the leading?
At the start of the barrel?
Only at the muzzle end?
or all the way along the bore?

[HI-TEK]

My shop is and has been heated for the duration of the recent testing.

I have mildly heat cured (100 deg) the coating/core over a dry heat with fan source before placing in an oven.

The oven has two separate internal therms for consistency. It also has been lined with fire stone/brick to help with consistency.

I have baked them only long enough to have them pass the acetone test and then the smash test. There has been adequate cooling between coats and adequate pre heat curing before baking.

As I have stated it is very dry here...just bending your fingers can make your skin crack....I'm not kidding about this one. So I doubt that moisture is a problem.

Gateway...I have started from square one about 5 times now. Each time inching my way up to a passing test and when I get to loading and shooting I get a little ear burn.

I have also shot and tested others bullets with the same result...so I know that it is not just me. How ever I will say that Donnies bullets wont scratch as easily but the smash test makes them flake worse than mine.

I'll take a vid in the morning and post it here...start to finish for any doubters.

TES

Most interesting comments.
I am really puzzled.
As the coatings are baked at 370-392F, they are dry, and no moisture at all will remain under those conditions.
I do not understand your comments that it is inferred, that the dry conditions at where you are located has any thing to do with the coating failing.

When referring to moisture as being a problem, it is not the moisture in the air that is being referred to as being the problem.
What was advised, is, that when Acetone evaporates, and which is rapid, during that process, there is a cooling effect taking place on surfaces of projectiles.
That cooling accompanied by Acetones ability to absorb moisture, is what is referred to as may be the start of the problem.
Due to rapid drying of coatings, the surfaces form a hard skin when drying.
Thickness of the skin, will depend on how much coating is applied.
With combination of rapid drying and skin formation, accompanied by moisture absorption at same time, the moisture becomes trapped below surfaces of the dry skin formed on the coating.
As the coating feels dry, when placed into the oven, any trapped moisture is then immediately affected with extreme heat, twice that of temperatures required to boil water.
This sudden heat exposure to trapped moisture, is what was being referred to, that may be the start of the problem especially with the first coat.
The trapped moisture in the coating, (especially if applied too thickly in the first instance) becomes the super heated steam which affects adhesion of the coatings.
As coatings are baked at 370-390F, (which is required to correctly set and cure the coatings), any steam that is released, will try and get away from surfaces between coating and cooler alloy, and may be preventing proper adhesion.
What I was trying to address is, that due to your area being a totally arid and dry climate, seems the only difference between what is happening elsewhere.
Aside from that there should be no other associated problems arising simply by the fact that coatings, once baked at 370-390F are then totally dry due to conditions of bake.
Transporting such coated alloy, to a dry or arid condition, should not change properties of the coatings, as they are already totally dehydrated and if coated correctly, should be fully bonded to alloy.
Your particular Comments/problems require further investigation, as to why things are appearing to go wrong with your and others products after delivery to you.
I believe that Donnie has made contact with you and had started investigations jointly with you to try to get to the bottom of suggested failures..

[Ausglock]

I still say that TES is doing something wrong.

Just look at the locations of where the commercial caster/coaters are located on OZ.
You have 1 in WA (hot dry)
1 in SA (Very hot very dry)
1 in Vic ( very changable conditions)
2 in Sydney (changable as well)
1 in Newcastle ( from very hot dry to very cold wet)
1 in Northern NSW ( hot and humid to cold and wet)
2 in QLD ( hot and humid)
1 in NT ( extremely hot and humid to extremely hot and dry)
These are the ones I know of that have been coating for over 20 years and don't have the problems TES is having.

I cast 5000 45 pills yesterday. Going to cast a few 1000 9mm today and tomorrow and coat next week. I love holidays..

[Gateway Bullets]

Holidays.....Bah Humbug! Lol

[TES]

ok here we go....



So BB are done there and shipped here (1st bullet smashed)

Mine are made here (2nd bullet smashed)

What did BB do wrong with his process? Not me...just Donnie's.

[Ausglock]

Beats the schit out of me...
I went and got a few bullets I coated back in August. Smashed them and they are fine. They were Green, Gold and Red copper.

I can not scratch any coating Like you can with a finger nail. I have to use the leatherman knife blade to get that type of scratch.

My casting setup








my casting style video link.

[220]

Coated my first boolits today, started off with blue/green 5 1 7.
Given it was my first attempt I measured the amount I was adding to the boolits, 7ml per 2.5kg.
Baked in the breville smart oven at 190c for 10min. The trays I have made are quite small, each tray holds 1.25kg comfortably. Baked them one tray at a time and they passed the smash and wipe tests.
Tried some red/copper same ratio, application rate and bake time and they failed the wipe test, increased the bake time to 12min and they passed the wipe test.
Started baking 2 trays of the blue/green at the same time and had the same trouble, getting some wipe off, increased the time to 12 min and they all passed.

Ended up using 3 coats of blue/green and 4 of the red/copper, I might be going a bit light on the coats with the blue/green and a Lee 158TL swc I wasn't getting total coverage until the 3rd coat, with the red/copper even after 4 coats I still don't have HiTek in all the lube grooves and the colour was golden until the 3rd coat.

Now to load them up and see what they do, don't expect any trouble with the 105 & 158 swc, have loads that put 10 shots under 2" at 25m in my revolver using LLA and will go 500+ rounds without any loss in accuracy, can't see why the HiTek wont shoot at least as well.
Looking forward to trying the 180gr 38 Noe I coated with the red/copper will use them in my marlin for hunting and silhouette.
Haven't had time to develop a load yet for the marlin, have been using j word even for silhouette, rifle will shoot 1.5moa with j word loads it likes so we will see what it will do with cast and HiTek.
Son is keen to shoot more lever action silhouette so a cast that shoots well will let us shoot more, not that he needs the practice, kicked my butt at the state tittles a few weeks ago and was top junior but I could do with some practice